Newbie 1966: History [GAME OVER]

[RadiantCowbells]

To locktown based only on a townslip and nothing else that's necessarily town indicative seems naive. I could understand thinking moonchild could betown based on it (even though I disagree), or maybe even a fair bit of confidence, but this is a little crazy. I don't really see the scum motivation for such confidence, but on the other hand it makes no sense to be so confident based on so little without some other knowledge.

like you even called her out in your last post then turned around and called me manipulative for trying to get you to vote her?

[RadiantCowbells]

Hella yikes there bro.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that there's a decent probability that you're scum with ETL and that you're paying lip service to her being scum (which you've done several times) but you're going to try to divert me onto another player.

I think that how you have played this in thread lines up with that given that you've repeatedly called her out for things but have negatively treated my townread on Loserdude and also called Jake scum in your last post to try to open up counterwagon possibilities but despite the claimed reasons to scumread her you're turning suspicion back on me when I say that you should vote the person you've scumread.

I'll give a more coherent case but I think that me being wary of you being manipulative here makes complete sense with the way things are going.
Calling it manipulative for me to try to get someone who expressed suspicion of another player to vote said player does not.

I mean, you didn't really seem to care about my reasons for any of my other reads, you asked me about LoserDudeOG but never followed up.
why is the read from me that you're concerned is manipulative the one that we share according to your own posts on the matter?

[Yimmy]

I didn't spend the same amount of time calling Loser and ETL scum in my last post? I suppose I said the same amount regarding their reactions but I definitely said more regarding the time before their interactions about Loserdude.
I still don't think your play before that point did make sense from a scum agenda but at least two people suspect you pretty prominently so to proclaim yourself as obvtown seemed ignorant of that fact. It doesn't make sense from your perspective to call yourself obvtown to me and I was curious
What I think is manipulative is the lack of explanation for your scumread on ETL. You've said multiple times "x post is scummy" and "ETL does scummy things" without any detail and I've asked you to elaborate so I can understand yet you ignored me. (398 The only explanation I could think of for you to disregard that question is that you don't have any real reason to back those statements up and are just expecting us to trust you or fill in the blanks for ourselves.
If you already have a strong case to be so confident already why didn't you share it then or the time I asked if you had a case at all? (301)
If you do actually present your case and it's enough for it to make sense that you're so confident I'd trust you happily but it doesn't make sense that you completely ignored the first one (and a half) requests

[Yimmy]

I thought I asked you multiple times for a case/explanatopn but they were both in the same post so that takes some of the weight off of the ignoring, but I still don't understand why you didn't present the case when you were first confident or when I asked if it was POE in 301

[RadiantCowbells]

I suck at making cases. Okay, I'll make a case.

[SausasaurusRex]

@RadiantCowbells, what happened to making a case?

[RadiantCowbells]

I was playing DND and I have other stuff to do and making cases is not fun for me.

It'll happen, it just takes some time bla bla bla

[RadiantCowbells]

grr making cases is just the worst

[RadiantCowbells]

Ugh

The struggles

[RadiantCowbells]

Here we go!

I really like Moonchild's posts thusfar. I think the answers she had to Jake's questions came off genuine and interested. I don't get the sense that there's an agenda there, at least not yet. And then there was the town slip, so

I think that if you genuinely believe the slot town slipped, that's front and center in your read on the slot. It's the magnum opus for your townread because it literally locks them as town.
With that said, I do not think that Town!EspeciallyTheLies gives a read that talks about how she's "genuine and interested" and how there's "not an agenda, at least not yet" (and if they townslipped, why is it a not yet?)
And then as an afterthought says and then there was the town slip. If you believe the townslip, that's it, the end. It's not something that you put at the end of your read as an afterthought.

I think it's pretty reasonable, but at the same time, it is entirely possible to be an attempt of pocketing.

If Yimmy is town, why is it reasonable for him to defend you, when he presumably doesn't know anything of your alignment. <<< This should be suspicious to you. Why isn't it?

And if you disagree with the above, then you must believe he's scum trying to pocket you, in which case my question becomes - why are you not voting for him?

p-edit - buncha posts to read

This is really dumb; why can't Yimmy have a correct, legitimate townread on Jake? What's with this "oh the townread MUST be faked and Jake is scummy for not scumreading it?"
Like, what?

I'm gonna need some serious cases from the people voting moonchild to be honest. She's my top townread.

This is actually the biggest one for me and I think that I've called it out but I didn't explain why it bothered me, which it does for two reasons:
1) The phrasing. "serious cases" and "to be honest". It sounds super exaggerated and fake; I don't think that's how town talks about this townread.
2) The fact that instead of herself pushing for why Moonchild is town, she's instead externalizing the responsibility onto everyone else, which is really common from scum and seems very unlikely from Town!EspeciallyTheLies who I know as a strong personality and someone who will defend her own townreads with her own effort/posting/cases.

I feel like saus is just phoning it in. why?

It just seems like you don't really care where your vote goes or what's actually happening. You can say it's because you want answers but you need to interact with her, which I haven't seen much of. Do you have no suspicions anywhere?

This feels more like scum pretending to have a town engagement than it feels like town having a real interaction. It feels specifically designed to look town. I would say that as well about the post she made about needing more info on multiple wagons rather than hammering someone early in the day. I think town her would be more likely to just say we don't lynch someone on Page 6 whereas scum her wants to milk it for all the towncred that she can so she goes on that long ramble about pro-town and bla bla bla. And that's ignoring the "just seems like" and the fact that the phrasing feels both really excessive and not like a proper follow up on phoning it in: she gives an extremely scummy description in this post of what she previously called phoning it in, which is low efforting.

don't understand why Moonchild is being scumread. It's pretty clear to me she townslipped unintentionally, but even despite that, her ISO is pretty town-motivated. Can you walk me through your read there a bit more, please?

Again. "Pretty clear to me", as well as the fact that she's trying to get someone else to clarify their read on moonchild as opposed to just telling them no fuck off she's town.
You might say that this is more pro-town than doing that, but that doesn't mean that it's more likely to come from town her.

@Yimmy re your responses to me in your post 181 - thank you for requoting what you said - I must have missed it somehow. While I agree that townslips are easily faked, I don't think that fits with Moonchild's other posts. They come across rather genuine. If it was a ploy, why immediately correct herself in the next post like 2 seconds later? Why not wait to collect the towncred? If her other posts sounded more sneaky or nervous, I might believe it was a fabricated slip, but at his moment I do not.

I dunno we finally got an expansion on this but it feels like entirely meaningless things to say. "posts sounded more sneaky or nervous" is a really easy thing for scum to say to buoy up a read that's hard to support based off of in thread textual evidence. I personally do not believe there is in thread textual evidence to support Moonchild being 'obvious town'. I think that it is a very easy read for scum to take to try to look pro-town though. I also think that it's a potential stance for scum to take on a buddy. But I don't really buy ETL being this sure Moonchild is town as town, and the unfalsifiability of the reasons makes me feel no better about it.

Dunn’s opportunistic vote on me is also pretty suspect. Very much makes me rethink jocus.

I don't think town her who was tunneling Jocus as ridiculously as she was suddenly just drops the read because two people are chainsaw attacking her; quite the opposite.
I think that she would double down on her Jocus read as town in this position because we're derailing his wagon. What motivation do we have to prevent her from lynching scum?
Makes more sense to lightly defend him and softly push her, let her lead the mislynch, then take advantage of her looking awful from that mislynch to lynch her.
On the other hand, if she's scum who knows she's pushing town!Jocus she would back down on this because making more enemies than you have to at a point like this is bad.

His “reads”. They’re garbage and twisted. And I know he’s a better player than that so they must be made up. He’s attempted to spin a specific narrative and take advantage of newbie naïveté. If he was town he’d recognize my town game right away. And yet he’s gotten the entire player list flopsided. I know for a fact RC is an incredibly strong player so this doesn’t jive.

Already pointed this out, but she calls my player list flopsided and then reevaluates the vast majority of her reads into the same reads that I have.

If I had to choose the two town from this group I’d say probably ... ugh. Maybe Dunn and jocus?

Think for a second which players she as scum is most interested in pocketing/preventing them from being interested in lynching her in that category if she's scum. It's these two.
The one voting her and the one that she was derptunneling earlier to prevent enemies being made. LDog was townreading her, etc.

I thought pyro might be town but I’m entirely convinced RC is scum at this point. << this is why town loses. RCscum = town loss without a strong enough counterforce. Unfortunately that force is not me.

Why even mention that you thought Pyro might be town unless you're setting up for after I flip town?

I have done that in the past and it didn’t work. We clash on a personality level and that’s fine. It doesn’t have anything to do with who you are as a person. Our styles of discussion/talking do not work together. I don’t have the patience anymore to deal with combative players. IRL reasons make it very important for me not to get stressed if I want to stay out of the hospital.

For the sake of the mod I will stick this game through as much as I can but I’m not interested in this situation. I’m not interested in what you think of me or my abilities as a player. So either push for my lynch or do something else, I don’t care.

I've been extremely minimally interpersonally aggressive this game, and this post really doesn't make sense as a response to someone that you think is scum.

I believe the town slip was genuine.

Still a very easy stance to take as scum and I think doubling down on it makes sense to look pro-town but I acknowledge that this isn't the best case ever against her.

at least two people suspect you pretty prominently so to proclaim yourself as obvtown seemed ignorant of that fact. It doesn't make sense from your perspective to call yourself obvtown to me and I was curious

ETL is scum and LDog doesn't have a good read on me. I'm obvious town regardless of if everyone in the game sees it.

As a final note I just think that it's healthier for the game for one of the two of us to be removed Day 1. I think that she's scum, she claims to think that I'm scum, she has expressed that for real life reasons she doesn't want this game to be messy, I'm doing my best to keep it not messy but I think that 1) even if she's town removing one of us from play is correct 2) her slot for the moonchild read alone is one that i would never want to see in endgame and 3) if she doesn't want to play with me and the mod doesn't want me to leave I think the lynch is the best tool to make everyone happy.

Don't take my comments at the end as subtracting from my scumread on her. I absolutely scumread her. But that's why I think it should absolutely not be kicked down the curb.

[RadiantCowbells]

Anyway. I didn't get to see anything from Arkias to my chagrin so I can't give a meaningful read on him/her and as a result I'm holding off on my full player readslist, one of which I'd absolutely like to give before EOD1.
All of my readslists so far have been made in haste to keep up with changing internal reads and should be taken with a grain of salt because my reads when I first join a game are always in deep flux.

My final readslist of the day is to be taken if I die as the sole one that accurately represents my reads.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like it's hard to not feel really bad for her if I repped in and fucked up her game but I really do think that she's scum and the door to us trying to work together in spite of that is shut by this point.

[RadiantCowbells]

One final thing I've been on the fence about saying is that as someone considered a top end scumplayer I rarely get serious before I have to because I trust in my ability to project town later in the game if I have a weak entrance and get scumread for it. The fact that ETL went from being imo really scummy before I repped in to shaping up and trying to project town after is a neon flag that she's scum. I think that she's frustrated in a large part because she wasn't actually trying so hard because it was a newbie and then my replace in came out of nowhere and all of a sudden she has to try to compensate for her earlier game which isn't really how scum play works when I'm not just gonna forget about that stuff. I dunno. I respect her town play too much to think that this is it and I think that the specific manner that she is scummy in this game is exactly the kind of way that she would be scummy as scum in a game where she was playing around fooling random general people as opposed to anyone who really knows what they're doing, and she hits all the easy townread notes that I'd expect scum her to try to hit so yeah.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What happens if ETL is just really good and you're scum reading them because of it?
Also, please make your posts more consice. You don't have to make each and every post you make a novel It's really hard and unfriendly when you use unnecessary words to make your posts longer.

[RadiantCowbells]

What happens if ETL is just really good and you're scum reading them because of it?
Also, please make your posts more consice. You don't have to make each and every post you make a novel It's really hard and unfriendly when you use unnecessary words to make your posts longer.

I don't think "ETL is just really good" is an answer to literally anything that I've brought against her.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like that would be a rebuttal if my case on her was that she had TMI reads or something. I don't think I've presented a single TMI read case on her. MoonLight kinda but it's more about how she presents it than the argument that she doesn't have the information for it. I would turn that back on you and ask what if you're scumreading Jocus because he's bad?

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, I think that I have the opposite of a tendency to misread stronger players. I think in a way that most players look for orange by looking for yellow whereas I look for the red and most scum try to look yellow to get townread. I have struggles with certain individuals who tend to appear red as town but I don't think as a general rule more competent players are better at fooling me and I am very used to being the sole person to correctly scumread scum who most players in a lobby consider to be having a superstar performance while I'm just like uhh why the fuck are you guys townreading this dude?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Not even gonna read that case because it’s wrong and it’s wrong for the simple fact that I’m town.

I’m gonna do something you should never do in a game. But I’m doing it because I feel like focusing on me is a giant fucking waste of time. No way townRC is so completely unable to recognize the difference between my town game and my scum game. Especially after all that fucking bluster about his own proficiency. GTFOH.

I am the Town Cop

That means we’re either in column A or column C. I hope to fuck we’re in column A so I can get a check done tonight. I agree to inspect whoever majority chooses. My top choices to check would be RC or Dunnstral.

[RadiantCowbells]

Scum ETL absolutely wants to fakeclaim here; she 100% claims that (or another PR? I'm not sure what the optimal PR claim is and I tried hard to make sure there isn't one) as scum and would be incompetent not to.

I never actually worked out correct play in this situation, so I'm going to figure that out now.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Like that would be a rebuttal if my case on her was that she had TMI reads or something. I don't think I've presented a single TMI read case on her. MoonLight kinda but it's more about how she presents it than the argument that she doesn't have the information for it. I would turn that back on you and ask what if you're scumreading Jocus because he's bad?

Then I would say that they haven't offered any reads and at most has been tunneling me. I still don't get why you don't see how even when a town is pressed for reads for other people when death tunneling, they should at the very least consider doing it. Focus has done nothing of the sort. They aren't just bad, they're lazy. They're lazy because they are scum, because they're waiting for the town to self-destruct.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

*sigh*

[RadiantCowbells]

Anything besides a doctor can CC her. I think the correct play is for certain roles to claim first that can claim relatively safely and if none are CCs then we just move on I guess.

Then I would say that they haven't offered any reads and at most has been tunneling me. I still don't get why you don't see how even when a town is pressed for reads for other people when death tunneling, they should at the very least consider doing it. Focus has done nothing of the sort. They aren't just bad, they're lazy. They're lazy because they are scum, because they're waiting for the town to self-destruct.

This is motivated reasoning.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Not even gonna read that case because it’s wrong and it’s wrong for the simple fact that I’m town.

I’m gonna do something you should never do in a game. But I’m doing it because I feel like focusing on me is a giant fucking waste of time. No way townRC is so completely unable to recognize the difference between my town game and my scum game. Especially after all that fucking bluster about his own proficiency. GTFOH.

I am the Town Cop

That means we’re either in column A or column C. I hope to fuck we’re in column A so I can get a check done tonight. I agree to inspect whoever majority chooses. My top choices to check would be RC or Dunnstral.

The only thing that could save you is if you were announced IC, I guess

[RadiantCowbells]

So, it's obvious that FN -> Tracker claiming should be a thing. It's less clear to me whether it's optimal for one of two masons to claim.