Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.02

Yangtze, China

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

Titus

(1): GuiltyLion

Not Voting

(6): faüstiv, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf, Rise, TheGildedSun, Titus

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-26 18:15:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[TheGildedSun]

TGS, are you agreeing with Titus here?

Not particularly. They're getting a little timid in their words, but in a scum way, not in town-not-wanting-to-be-lynched way. Titus is clearly an experienced player, when an experienced townie is getting wrongfully read as scum they commonly act confident and don't bend under pressure, as they know they're not lying. They're more likely to get frustrated if anything. I'll gather some direct evidence on this in a bit, I just have a lot of tests and schoolwork due before Thanksgiving break that I need to catch up on.

What I was saying was that they said a townie would never soft-claim, my post was clarifying that it can and does happen based on my experience.

[GuiltyLion]

I didnt vote BS because he was easily being TRed. When I was casing Titus I noticed something off with their interactions so I wanted to vote either of them because I thought they could be a scumteam. Titus was unattainable yesterday so I chose BS.

also faustiv to touch on this / close it out

I can see where you're coming from with this explanation I think, but it was hard not to think you were voting BS because he was easily being TRed when that's exactly what you said:

BS has also been on 3 wagons.

i don't like how easily he's being TR'ed

. I don't like Titus' reluctance to vote him either considering his thought process.

so like yeah in context with your explanation, I see how the vote can come out of your case on Titus and I don't want to push this point any further, but forgive me for misunderstanding your post here.

[GuiltyLion]

hot takes time:
-GBJ might be scum after all
-this game needs more Map Wolf
-Rise/TGS kinda feel townier to me with D2 play?
-all of you all should be voting because votes are the most important action in mafia!!

Rise to appeal to you more directly, assuming you aren't scum then I'm getting the sense that you're mainly responding negatively to how confrontational/harsh/direct I can be about things that I'm investigating or pushing. It sounds like it's making me come off as trying to grab a town leader role and assert control, and that's making you paranoid that I'm scum being manipulative. I'd really ask you to consider to what extent this is playstyle clash vs me making disingenuous arguments (that I wouldn't believe in if I were scum). and if there's more questions you want to ask me to help clarify/explain the stuff I'm thinking about or posting I'm always happy to elaborate further on anything.

also I'm honestly trying to pick up the charge against Titus here on D2 because I think with this game state / playerbase she's crafty enough to worm her way out of a lynch if no one takes her to task for that hammer. My impression of GBJ/Map Wolf/TGS/Rise play so far is that regardless of alignment y'all are a little reluctant to fight or pressure somebody for an extended period of time. Faustiv

may

be able to do it but he's in and out activity wise. so I was gonna give Titus a little bit of room to see how she'd open in case it truly was a bad mistake but now that she's exclusively continued to defend that hammer it's time to throw down and my impression rn is I'm the only one who's going to do it.

Titus was right when she said I'm the only one pushing her so far, but it's shady to claim that I'm doing so at the expense of any other conversation - especially when nobody else, Titus included, has said much so far.

[Map Wolf]

The hammer was really stupid if town and really scummy regardless of alignment.

It's like a 50/50 that it's a genuine doctor... not worth the risk.

It was not a 50/50 risk. Town players don't soft claim. Period. I thought I was protecting the real doctor or preventing scum from coasting on a fake claim

If that was true, then scum wouldn't soft claim either... And yet here we are.

[Map Wolf]

hot takes time:
-this game needs more Map Wolf

Yes. I definitely need to put more into this.

[faüstiv]

I am quite paranoid about your push on Titus GL. Your tunnel on the slot contrasts your d1 play where you were actively trying to sort players. If Titus is scum, who’s the partner?

I’ve read your case on Titus and I agree with some of it and can see where your thought process is coming from, but I don’t like how you’re not considering that there could be a town motivated reason why Titus made that hammer. I have a theory why town!Titus makes that hammer but I don’t really want to out it just yet.

On the other hand, I feel if Titus was indeed town, there would probably be more scrutiny on the slot because Titus is an easily ML to attain for scum.

GL: Do you think Titus panicked when hammering BS?

[faüstiv]

also Titus please answer my questions thank you

[Plotinus]

GayBabyJailor¹ has been prodded and has (expired on 2019-11-22 04:28:33) to post before I start looking for a replacement.

[Titus]

What I was saying was that they said a townie would never soft-claim, my post was clarifying that it can and does happen based on my experience.

Yes, but not in that situation. L-1 is for hardclaims period. I might be a doctor was a neon sign for a scumfuck that wanted a CC.

I don't regret it in the slightest. This is the newbie queue where people learn that shit is unacceptable.

@faustiv, what post had your questions?

[Titus]

The hammer was really stupid if town and really scummy regardless of alignment.

It's like a 50/50 that it's a genuine doctor... not worth the risk.

It was not a 50/50 risk. Town players don't soft claim. Period. I thought I was protecting the real doctor or preventing scum from coasting on a fake claim

If that was true, then scum wouldn't soft claim either... And yet here we are.

Yes they would, because they can walk it back if a real doctor CCed him.

[Map Wolf]

What I think you should've done was that you should've asked them to clarify if they for real were doctor. That'd force them to commit to a claim... Also it would've made no sense to fake-claim doctor while you're getting lynched if you were town.

[Map Wolf]

Pondering about this game (I will need to read through ISOs), I kind of have a gut feeling that the scum players would want to court me on their side by townreading me.
I really still think Titus hammering BS was the wrong thing. There are two options: Town misplaying is possible, but would suck. The other option is that she is scum intentionally hammering what is likely a doctor, and then trying hard to justify the action as rational play.
Like if you were scum and she was town, you'd want to push her.

[faüstiv]

Titus is flying under the radar; too much for my liking considering his posts.

post 23:

You don't seem to be a newbie.

VLA this weekend.

completely contradicts post 174:

My apologies. I didn't realize this had started.

in live mafia scum do this a lot; fake afk then come in at some point later in the day to say that 'they didn't know the game started' so people townread them as villager. probably not the case in forum mafia, however this does need exploring. why did you make 174 Titus?

183:

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

you claim BS is anti town and that Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic but could come from town, yet vote Map Wolf instead of BS.

vote count at this time was:

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
Map Wolf (2): faüstiv, GuiltyLion,
Rise (1): Blatant Scum

Not Voting (3): Gjt, Titus, TheGildedSun

a vote from Titus on BS would put him on L1, so if you think he's anti town, why did you not do so? why did you pick Map Wolf instead?

don't get line of thinking in 230. can you explain that to me?

Glided Sun and BS both have wagons to 3 again.

This suggest Map wolf and GS have the same alignment.

262:

I didn't say they were both town. They could both be scum. The same people, particularly you and faustiv voting the same wagons suggest the same alignment for them.

If they are opposites, then it suggests BS is scum to me.

so where do your thoughts lie?

if you're voting Map Wolf then that suggests you think he is scum. do you think TGS is town? if so why not vote BS. there's no progression to consider here because this post stems from a logical analysis made by Titus in 183.

vote count for reference:

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
TheGildedSun (3): faüstiv, Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion
Map Wolf (1): Titus
GayBabyJailor (1): Gjt

Not Voting (1): TheGildedSun

Also, no matter how antitown they are, you never hammer an un-CC'd doctor claim on D1.

That's just flat out wrong. I'm not trading our doctor, if one even exists, for outed scum. If BS was scum, my move was very optimal. Based on BS's play, hammering was the correct move to make.

Sure, BS was town here by fluke but BS wasn't a claimed doctor. He soft claimed to fish with intent on him.

yeah I don’t understand this logic at all.

I am quite paranoid about your push on Titus GL. Your tunnel on the slot contrasts your d1 play where you were actively trying to sort players. If Titus is scum, who’s the partner?

I’ve read your case on Titus and I agree with some of it and can see where your thought process is coming from, but I don’t like how you’re not considering that there could be a town motivated reason why Titus made that hammer. I have a theory why town!Titus makes that hammer but I don’t really want to out it just yet.

On the other hand, I feel if Titus was indeed town, there would probably be more scrutiny on the slot because Titus is an easily ML to attain for scum.

GL: Do you think Titus panicked when hammering BS?

Questions are in these 3 posts. I’m on phone so can’t bold them.

[faüstiv]

What I think you should've done was that you should've asked them to clarify if they for real were doctor. That'd force them to commit to a claim... Also it would've made no sense to fake-claim doctor while you're getting lynched if you were town.

Pondering about this game (I will need to read through ISOs), I kind of have a gut feeling that the scum players would want to court me on their side by townreading me.
I really still think Titus hammering BS was the wrong thing. There are two options: Town misplaying is possible, but would suck. The other option is that she is scum intentionally hammering what is likely a doctor, and then trying hard to justify the action as rational play.
Like if you were scum and she was town, you'd want to push her.

I like this thought process but I think there are other reasons why town!Totus and scum!Titus should do what she did.

[Titus]

What I think you should've done was that you should've asked them to clarify if they for real were doctor. That'd force them to commit to a claim... Also it would've made no sense to fake-claim doctor while you're getting lynched if you were town.

If I could do that in a vaccum, I agree. There was always a chance town would CC in the middle, giving scum BS precisely what he wants.

[Titus]

Faustiv, I'll try to parse that later.

[Rise]

I'm very much on the fence right now. Busy rn but I'll share some thoughts in a bit.

[GayBabyJailor]

weird why gjt was killed when I was his scumread

probably wifom by mafia

[GuiltyLion]

I am quite paranoid about your push on Titus GL. Your tunnel on the slot contrasts your d1 play where you were actively trying to sort players. If Titus is scum, who’s the partner?

Not sure. I don't think it'd be Rise based on their interactions and Rise's D2 play. Could still be TGS I guess. I'm kinda wondering if I town cleared GBJ a little too preemptively cause my reasons for townreading that slot feel kinda stale now and he also was singularly focused on BS for pretty suspect reasoning.

I do think I'm still trying to sort - see all my other interactions today - but the fact of the matter is I really don't want Titus to skate by on this. So obviously my D2 is going to be more focused than my D1.

I’ve read your case on Titus and I agree with some of it and can see where your thought process is coming from, but I don’t like how you’re not considering that there could be a town motivated reason why Titus made that hammer. I have a theory why town!Titus makes that hammer but I don’t really want to out it just yet.

If you're thinking what I think you're thinking, I disagree. She would have even

more

reason not to hammer if that were the case.

On the other hand, I feel if Titus was indeed town, there would probably be more scrutiny on the slot because Titus is an easily ML to attain for scum.

GL: Do you think Titus panicked when hammering BS?

No, I think she just saw an opportunity to take out the doctor for free and took it. I am wondering if that means either:
a) her partner would have been the fallback lynch if BS got by on the claim (pointing to TGS/Titus team in that case?)
b) her partner was in pretty good standing and she thought they'd have a good shot at the win even if she goes down on D2 (why I'm kinda rethinking GBJ slot a little bit)

either is possible but I don't have a lot of evidence yet either way, would need a few more flips to help make things clearer.

[GuiltyLion]

What I was saying was that they said a townie would never soft-claim, my post was clarifying that it can and does happen based on my experience.

Yes, but not in that situation. L-1 is for hardclaims period. I might be a doctor was a neon sign for a scumfuck that wanted a CC.

I don't regret it in the slightest. This is the newbie queue where people learn that shit is unacceptable.

@faustiv, what post had your questions?

The hammer was really stupid if town and really scummy regardless of alignment.

It's like a 50/50 that it's a genuine doctor... not worth the risk.

It was not a 50/50 risk. Town players don't soft claim. Period. I thought I was protecting the real doctor or preventing scum from coasting on a fake claim

If that was true, then scum wouldn't soft claim either... And yet here we are.

Yes they would, because they can walk it back if a real doctor CCed him.

What I think you should've done was that you should've asked them to clarify if they for real were doctor. That'd force them to commit to a claim... Also it would've made no sense to fake-claim doctor while you're getting lynched if you were town.

If I could do that in a vaccum, I agree. There was always a chance town would CC in the middle, giving scum BS precisely what he wants.

again -

1) That was not a "soft" claim. Softing is something like "unvote me or you'll regret it", "I'm important to the town's win", "I got a special role", etc, where there's still room to deny that it was a claim or deny that you have a PR. Saying "doctor" means it's explicitly not a soft, even if you say "soft" in there. If BS had been CC'd in any way there would be no room to walk that back, and

that

is when it would have been appropriate to lynch him.

2) This whole argument is disingenuous for the simple fact of the matter that Titus wound up hammering the actual town doctor. Her whole reasoning for why her play was good is that it would protect a "real doctor" from being forced to out by counterclaiming. However, she hammered without warning and without letting other players avoid CCing and thus the actual outcome is that

she killed the doctor

!! So there is no valid justification of like "I was doing this to save our PRs", because at the end of the day she took the only action that lead to us losing a PR, and she did this for no gain whatsoever

[GuiltyLion]

There are two options: Town misplaying is possible, but would suck. The other option is that she is scum intentionally hammering what is likely a doctor, and then trying hard to justify the action as rational play.
Like if you were scum and she was town, you'd want to push her.

again, to back this up, I was prepared to rethink Titus' actions if she came into today looking for scum, aggressively pressuring and attempting to sort people, and accepting that the hammer was a mistake.

however, she is trying

really freaking hard!

to get you all to think that her hammer was somehow justifiable. It wasn't. Full stop. We lynched the doc on D1 and that's a huge win for scum. The only reason she is continuing to argue this is because she wants to

survive

(as opposed to find scum), which means she is more likely scum as scum's entire goal is to survive.

I am going to point out again that Titus has done exactly zero scumhunting today. She's entirely focused on saving herself. She paid lip service to the idea of looking at people WKing the BS slot, but didn't even name names or ask questions when she tossed out that comment.

[Titus]

@GL, I'm not even caught up.

Second, I really don't like your implication that you would have looked elsewhere based on popular pressure if I focused on someone else as scum. Your rationale is retaliatory and jumping on an easier lynch.

This is you obsessing over me to the point of misconstruing mod comments. The mod didn't punish me at all, and if it broke the newbie queue rules, he would have. I got clearance from the mod to post that.

Your entire posting today has been angle shooting. You want to push me as scum? Fine. Do it within the spirit of the game.

I'm catching up with Faustiv's posts.

[Titus]

in live mafia scum do this a lot; fake afk then come in at some point later in the day to say that 'they didn't know the game started' so people townread them as villager. probably not the case in forum mafia, however this does need exploring. why did you make 174 Titus?

Because I forgot the game had started. My real life is not fake. You can see the details in various other games and the speakeasy. That's an NAI post. Lying about RL is cheating. If any player does that, I blacklist them.

[Titus]

Post 333 should be answered ad nauseam in other posts. If not, I'll need a more specific question.

In your last post, I need a rephrase of the question. It talks a lot about me but I don't see a question.