Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[GuiltyLion]

This is you obsessing over me to the point of misconstruing mod comments. The mod didn't punish me at all, and if it broke the newbie queue rules, he would have. I got clearance from the mod to post that.

you clearly don't understand my point or are misrepresenting it

You tried to argue that it's

bad

for townies to CC a doctor claim if they claim a PR at L-1.

Also, no matter how antitown they are, you never hammer an un-CC'd doctor claim on D1.

That's just flat out wrong. I'm not trading our doctor, if one even exists, for outed scum.

I quoted the mod post to show that this false, that CCing a PR claim is always a net benefit to town and is UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED as correct play:

Claiming Your Role

It is almost always best to not claim your role unless you are at L-1 and have been asked to claim as part of an “intent to hammer.” This is because, as a town power role (“PR”), if you out prematurely, you are likely to be night-killed (“NK’d”). As a Vanilla Townie (“VT”), claiming early helps the mafia team narrow down the setup and possible PR candidates.

An exception to this would be if a mafia player claimed your role, claiming early to counter the false claim (“CC”) would out the mafia player, and would be a benefit to the town.

To make this as simple as possible:
1) In a set-up where all possible roles are known to all players (so that CCs are possible), if someone claims a PR at L-1 you do not hammer until every player has had a chance to CC
2) If a player CCs, you decide which of the two is more likely to be scum and Lynch within that pool, knowing that if you're wrong you have guaranteed scum Lynch tomorrow
3) If nobody CCs, the claim should be treated as true unless proven otherwise.

This is basic mafia 101 and Titus sure as hell understands this given her experience and also my respect for her general skill/intellect as a player. The only sensical reason that Titus would pre-emptively hammer there is because she's scum, knows that BS was telling the truth, and wanted to get rid of the doctor.

[Titus]

I told you flat out arguing the mod comments breaks the spirit of the game. You persist.

VOTE: GL

Second, you're only considering the town!BS universe. In the scum!BS universe, they get nothing with the hypothetical, retractable doctor clsim.

[Titus]

A larger benefit is dead scum and a hidden doctor. That's what I felt would happen. Stop trying to hide behind the moderator to mislynch me and play the game.

[GuiltyLion]

What spirit of the game am I breaking by pointing out that you're trying to lie and confuse Newbies with reasoning that is wrong/deceitful, to the point that it's debunked in the standardized advice given to all Newbie players?

Also, again
-BS was town and you killed the town doc
-It was in no way a retractable claim as he explicitly said he was doctor.
-in the scum!BS universe we'd have full confidence that either he or another player were lying about their claim, and would be

guaranteed

a scum Lynch by at worst D2. Also, if BS were scum and we lynched him even with a doctor claim, it forces scum to kill the doctor instead of hunting for whatever investigative role exists (which instead they got to do for free). Now - DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS - we have no doc and no guaranteed scum lynch. There is no universe where that is pro-town play

[GuiltyLion]

A larger benefit is dead scum and a hidden doctor.

cool, where's our hidden doctor? where's our dead scum?

[GuiltyLion]

Before you hammer a player, state your intent to hammer (usually done in bold) and ask the player to claim their role. This is done to prevent power roles from being lynched, and can sometimes get Mafia-aligned players to be caught (via counter claiming). It's best to then allow other players to react and discuss the claim before hammering.

lol I didn't even read this part earlier

if anybody still believes Titus actually thinks her play is pro-town or remotely justifiable, holler at me. Otherwise I don't think it'll be productive beyond this point to continue a slap fight with her

[GuiltyLion]

actually fun little side note, I coached a Newbie partner to do the exact same thing (hammer the doctor at L-1 after their claim) in a Newbie game I played as mafia almost 4 years ago, here's our mafia topic where I advised her to consider a yolohammer:

and here's the post in the main game thread where my partner tried to defend herself afterwards. Check this line in her post:

"I was so sure he was lying,

and I was trying to avoid a CC from the real second PR so that they stayed anonymous longer.

"

This is how scum always justifies a turbo hammer on a PR. It is really the only way they can try to do so.

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.03

Celeste River, Costa Rica

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

Titus

(1): GuiltyLion

GuiltyLion

(1): Titus

Not Voting

(5): faüstiv, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf, Rise, TheGildedSun

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-26 18:15:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[faüstiv]

there's something really off with the titus/GL interaction.

not in terms of the content and context of the argument but rather the activity of the rest of the playerbase. has anyone actually weighed in with anything more than an 'on the fence opinion'? I've been mulling the gamestate and have come up with some hypothetical scenarios:

if GL and Titus is TvS then why is Titus not being turbolynched if she's town (when this would be an incredibly easy ML for town to make)? if Titus is scum when why does she make that hammer D1? as GL said either Titus believes her partner can carry or Titus believed that her partner was under scrutiny (could also suggest that scum!titus is a goon?) also if Titus is scum wouldn't partner bus here as no one here is seen as solid town by the rest of the playerbase?

if Titus and GL is SvS then whats the play here? this wouldn't make sense imo. the only thing i could see would be for one of them to bus the other and that player to claim a PR, fishing the other one out. this doesn't make sense because, assuming Titus would be the fall guy in the scumteam, GL doesn't really need to gain towncred when there's so many lynchable players still on the table. So I think if one flips scum the other flips town on this basis.

if Titus vs GL is TvT then to me this makes more sense, given that the rest of the playerbase have sat back and watched them juke it out. from what i remember there were quite a few votes flying around on d1. why is this not the case today? Imo this Titus vs GL argument has been prolonged too long and is dominating the discussion. IF this is TvT then it benefits mafia as they are not under any scrutiny or pressure; they just have to wait to see which side falters and throw the vote there. this also makes sense given that a lot of the other players have declared that they are 'on the fence'.

So I'm inclined to believe that we could be looking in the wrong ballpark here. I think both scum are outside GL and Titus and mafia are letting this argument continue as long as possible. As I've said, GL+Titus being SvS is unlikely so that would suggest that if GL or Titus is scum then they have a partner whch isn't GL/Titus. i want to look elsewhere.

Therefore I'm gonna throw this vote and see what it yields.

VOTE: GayBabyJailor

[faüstiv]

Post 333 should be answered ad nauseam in other posts. If not, I'll need a more specific question.

In your last post, I need a rephrase of the question. It talks a lot about me but I don't see a question.

yeah ignore it. there wasn't a question for you there. quoted wrong post.

[GayBabyJailor]

titus you're making me think guiltylion is town
VOTE: titus

[Rise]

Ok I'm about to board a long flight soon so

@mod and @everyone V/LA for about a day.

I'll still try and post some thoughts before I go though. Catching up now.

V/LA noted --P

[Plotinus]

TheGildedSun² has been prodded and has (expired on 2019-11-24 02:38:00) to post before I start looking for a replacement because the timer runs slower on weekends.

[Map Wolf]

I agree with the logic of GL in 370. That said, citing the mod is not really the way to go. Think of it like a guideline for new players, not some absolute rule.

[Map Wolf]

It's about 50/50 whether it's T/T for me (Between GL and Titus). Still, Titus comes off as defensive. You'd be better off admitting that you made a genuine mistake (as this was) as town. GL could be scum, but if you were scum, you wouldn't really need to push Titus in this scenario. I'd to ready to criticize her more if GL didn't do it.

On another note, the second town PR is Tracker/Cop. I can only assume that that player didn't find anything that would be useful for us.

[Map Wolf]

Also, it does kind of concern me that GBJ didn't reply to the vote on them.

[GayBabyJailor]

Also, it does kind of concern me that GBJ didn't reply to the vote on them.

because they just voted me to not be on the titus/guilylion wagons

[Rise]

I'm back and I don't really know where to start because there's just so much to take in. Gonna throw in some random thoughts

- Was going to agree SvS in Titus/Guilty is out of the question, but great, with that game Guilty linked, it could actually be a scenario. Would !scumGuilty literally try this again while linking us the game though? Probably not but man...
- The most likely option is still TvS both ways between Guilty/Titus. !scumGuilty or !scumTitus that is the question.
- Leaning towards !scumTitus still but I'm wondering if it's because Guilty's better at making a case or because he's more right
- Titus' "it wasn't a mistake" attitude makes me second guess myself. I think she'd be more...idk, trying to please us if she were scum
- Guilty's #381 actually makes me more "paranoid". Yes I've also noticed there's an experience/playstyle gap between us and I will/am trying to take that into consideration but why are you appealing to me? I think it is pretty obvious I'm the most cautious of you here so hmmm... Will try and ask you more questions though.
- This is kinda the reasoning for me so I'm gonna throw this out: I think we're all a bit reluctant to vote is partially because we're newbies? We don't have the experience/confidence to make this decision fast, at least I don't so that's why it looks like there's a lot of fence sitting. I don't think it means anything. Glad for it though so I can make my decision at my own pace.
- TvT is a possibility, but definitely not the most likely. Faustiv, your reasoning doesn't make sense to me.

[Map Wolf]

From the perspective of a town player, the chances of this being TvT is 44% mathematically. In regards to what Rise writes, I think GL is right about the lynch being wrong, even if he is scum. I think if Titus is scum, then it'd make sense to not apologize, in order to make us think that she wasn't scum.

I will VOTE: Titus as I think she is more likely to be scum, and because I want to see some progress (this does not mean quick lynch!).

Don't you dare hammering within the next 24 hours;

we have plenty of time to discuss stuff.

[Map Wolf]

I'm still leaning towards GBJ as bigger scum read currently. Least we finally getting some action going on here. We'll certainly get some better info

Anyone else down with Gaybabyjailor being Scum, I feel a more uneasy with Map Wolfs read lost each time I re read it and kinda agree with GuiltyLion, but not convinced either way yet

This is what Gjt thought about GBJ. Perhaps scum killed him because of his read on GBJ?
I am almost tempted to think that is a the case. Now, you could argue that they might've killed him,

so that I have this exact line of reasoning.

However, I don't think his scumread was really discussed all that much, and the chances that someone would mention it might appear really low. On the other hand, killing someone townreading you like that could be useful, because you view them as a good player due to getting that read kind of right.
Another option is that scum either 1. Killed randomly or 2. Just thought that he was the most town-read player who isn't scum.
To be honest, I think (2) is more likely the case.

[Rise]

^^ Absolutely yes to no quicklynching today. Please. Also where did 44% come from?

[Rise]

For Gjt, I never townread him. I'm curious to see why people did though. Imo, he didn't really say much D1 and instead did a lot of sitting back and watching.

Anyways, I don't think analysing his kill will help us here.

[Rise]

Actually, yknow what? I reread the lynching again and I have to admit, "I soft claim town doctor" was kinda a troll move. A bit game throwing since he was town. It was almost like he didn't want anyone to believe him so he could flip doctor and be like "haha I did say I was doctor."

These don't help either. I really thought he was going to flip scum.

Was I really so obvious?

What should(n't) I do next time?

This is not the same as the game Guilty linked.

F it guys, I'm going against the current. VOTE: GuiltyLion

[GayBabyJailor]

I'm still leaning towards GBJ as bigger scum read currently. Least we finally getting some action going on here. We'll certainly get some better info

Anyone else down with Gaybabyjailor being Scum, I feel a more uneasy with Map Wolfs read lost each time I re read it and kinda agree with GuiltyLion, but not convinced either way yet

This is what Gjt thought about GBJ. Perhaps scum killed him because of his read on GBJ?
I am almost tempted to think that is a the case. Now, you could argue that they might've killed him,

so that I have this exact line of reasoning.

However, I don't think his scumread was really discussed all that much, and the chances that someone would mention it might appear really low. On the other hand, killing someone townreading you like that could be useful, because you view them as a good player due to getting that read kind of right.
Another option is that scum either 1. Killed randomly or 2. Just thought that he was the most town-read player who isn't scum.
To be honest, I think (2) is more likely the case.

weird why gjt was killed when I was his scumread

probably wifom by mafia

already mentioned

[GayBabyJailor]

i wanted to be the first one to mention it so nobody thought killed him