Micro 900: Autumnal Mafia (Game Complete)

[Luca Blight]

Actually no, let’s not confirm that today due to the doc claim. Will elaborate more soon.

[Plum]

Votecount 3.2

Iconeum

- 1 (Datisi)

Not Voting

- 4 (Luca Blight, Iconeum, emps, Wickedestjr)

With 5 alive it takes 3 votes to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-28 12:00:00)

[Luca Blight]

Actually, the fact that scum can no-kill takes away the benefit of a possible Town doc, as there would be no way of knowing if the kill was blocked or if it were a deliberate no-kill.

[Luca Blight]

I just realised something...there's probably a scum Tracker in this game - that would explain the Back-up Tracker.

Looking at this game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... lit=normal

There were 5 Town PR's, so maybe it's possible me and emps could both be Town.

[Wickedestjr]

I also looked at some of Plum's past games and it seems like they had a fair amount of power roles in them. Not sure if there would be four town power roles in a micro, but I wouldn't call it impossible.

I really think that confirming that Datisi/Icon are not a team as we did for you/emps is an unnecessary risk right now. We seem to all agree about lynching Datisi or Icon today so I don't there's no reason to do that.

[Wickedestjr]

One thing that should be considered is that the other scum (Icon or Datisi) has been protecting emps all game.

Examples?

I put Pops at l-1 because there was no alternative - I thought Icon was Tracker and he was saying not to push Alim and he TR you, so there was nowhere else to go.

What about emps? You could have given him more attention yesterday. Instead, your L-1 vote demonstrated your willingness for the day to end before he had even contributed. It effectively allowed emps to get through a second day without doing anything. You critique Icon/Datisi for protecting emps but I feel like all three of you were kinda tunneled on pops.

[Wickedestjr]

@Datisi

can you explain why you don't think it's Icon/Luca?

[Luca Blight]

I also looked at some of Plum's past games and it seems like they had a fair amount of power roles in them. Not sure if there would be four town power roles in a micro, but I wouldn't call it impossible.

I really think that confirming that Datisi/Icon are not a team as we did for you/emps is an unnecessary risk right now. We seem to all agree about lynching Datisi or Icon today so I don't there's no reason to do that.

Yes, the game I linked above with 5 PR's in a 9p Micro Normal shows it's possible.

One thing that should be considered is that the other scum (Icon or Datisi) has been protecting emps all game.

Examples?

I'm surprised you need examples, have you not noticed it this game? The only reason I gave emps a pass was because I was sheeping Datisi and Icon who were my top TR's for most of the game.

I put Pops at l-1 because there was no alternative - I thought Icon was Tracker and he was saying not to push Alim and he TR you, so there was nowhere else to go.

What about emps? You could have given him more attention yesterday. Instead, your L-1 vote demonstrated your willingness for the day to end before he had even contributed. It effectively allowed emps to get through a second day without doing anything. You critique Icon/Datisi for protecting emps but I feel like all three of you were kinda tunneled on pops.

I was willing to look at alternatives, but it was a closed-shop. As I said, I TR Datisi and I thought Icon was Tracker, and between them they were unwilling to look at emps, you, or Alim. I also genuinely thought Pops was the best lynch Yesterday. There was no-one else who was going to be lynched that day. I had no way of knowing emps would come in and hammer without providing any further content.

[Luca Blight]

Here's a decent example of Datisi protecting emps:

not you Luca you're a good man

unless you're scum here and you prove me wrong but i would honsetly be okay with losing to scum!you here

emps is town. Unless you can give me some damn fucking good reasoning why those on Mena's wagon shouldn't eat rope first, emps is golden.

I'm not /sure/. I don't fucking know. It doesn't make sense that he's scum here. That wagon was horrendous. Those on it go first. Maybe in Datisi/emps/Luca lylo world I vote emps over someone else. And that's a big Maybe. Give the man time to start contributing.

'Give the man time to start contributing

' pings me, because emps has had all game to catch-up and start contributing, and he hasn't done and seemingly never will.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Examples of Icon protecting emps

emps my man

i like your tonal datisi read, but would it change if there would be scum daychatter?

weak luca read

your wicked read is low effort? have you actually read the game? I brought up a few critical points on wicked that i'm about to respond to in my next post. Are you scum with Wicked here?

alud has posted enough to have an opinion on...

Ali... Hmm. That seems like an OMGUS read to me, and feels like how town!emps would read it.

Wimpy read is meh as well :s Everyone would be overly defensive with the crap Menal pulled there.

Which brings me to your menal read that you are hedging. How can you not have an opinion on him? Like it or hate it, his ISO is FILLED with AI stuff.


This is probably town!Emps that is just not into this game. His reads are very feely right now, especially wrt Ali. He isn't pushing a scum!agenda and reminds me of myself when I'm town just stuck in a game.

@Alim

: If emps doesn't offer up something good soon then I might be willing to switch over.

We could vote him up to pressure into posting, but I don't think Emps is a good lynch today.

Um pressure doesnt work if you say its for pressuring and not gonna lynch them

let me rephrase that

i have no intention in lynching emps today, wicked goes first

@Alim

: If emps doesn't offer up something good soon then I might be willing to switch over.

We could vote him up to pressure into posting, but I don't think Emps is a good lynch today.

Also I just disagree on emps. I think I can read that slot. I'm liking the tone, and there's posts out there suggesting he is interested in scumhunting. If he doesn't improve he will be an easy lynch later on, and his lynch today gives us very little information imo.

Everyone: VOTE: Menalque
I thought being the universal SR and being ignored was frustrating. But holy shit, being the universal TR and

still

being ignored is a special type of hell.

I wasnt ignoring you. I was actively trying to understand why you TR Menalque when Pops hammered out of nowhere.

Datisi and Icon are still probably Town. I'm most likely going to vote for Pops today. I wish Menalque took more time to case Wicked while he was alive as I'm having a hard time reading that slot now; most of his content has been meh, but the case was good and I maintain that despite the flip.

emps needs considering.

@Icon and Datisi

, what are your current feelings about this slot?

I remain ambivalent about Alim. Pops/Alim team could make sense, though.

I thought emps was townish Day 1 and nothing changed. I want him to be here more then he currently is though.

And that's not including D3 where Icon has still been soft-defending emps while keeping himself open to lynching him.

[Wickedestjr]

And no, there’s never a chance I don’t kill who I think is the Tracker N2, especially when it also happens to be be a good player (which Icon is).

You say this, but I feel like you could also make the argument that there's never a chance Ico-scum doesn't kill me since he

knew

I was a FN.

Maybe you’re biased due to the fact you targeted both emps and Icon, but I don’t see how that team makes the least sense.

I can assure you that this is not the case at all. I maybe had a slight town lean on Ico going into night 1. But I picked emps because I thought he was the least likely to be nightkilled last night.

My reasons for thinking Icon/emps is unlikely:

• alimdia is like the worst night kill choice for an Icon/emps scum team. I was the only person that was more mis-lynchable and Icon knew that I would be confirmed town today. I get that Icon thought alimdia was a power role, but he KNEW that I was confirmed town. You and Datisi have probably been the two most popular town reads this game - why do you both survive this long if Icon/emps are scum together?
  
• The setup makes a lot more sense with emps being town than with you being town. If emps is town, then we have an informational role, a protective role, and a red herring role (which serves as an equal distraction to both town and scum if you are informed mafia) - that feels like a reasonable and creative setup. If you are town, then we have three semi-confirmable informational roles, no protective power roles, and scum have no way of combating your 'informed' ability.

[Wickedestjr]

And Wicked, to say me/Datisi makes the most sense defies all logic and sense.

If me/Datisi were a team I would have claimed Tracker and won the game. Icon had just said he thought I was Tracker. Why would I claim a role that could so easily come from scum?

So you're saying:

If you claim tracker, then you win.
If you don't claim tracker, then we shouldn't lynch you because you didn't claim tracker.

So basically this means that you and Datisi should just get auto win because there's no town tracker?

Fwiw, even if one of you had claimed tracker, I wouldn't be so quick to view you as confirmed town.

[Luca Blight]

And no, there’s never a chance I don’t kill who I think is the Tracker N2, especially when it also happens to be be a good player (which Icon is).

You say this, but I feel like you could also make the argument that there's never a chance Ico-scum doesn't kill me since he

knew

I was a FN.

There's never a chance Icon

does

NK you if he thinks he knows who the Tracker is.

Maybe you’re biased due to the fact you targeted both emps and Icon, but I don’t see how that team makes the least sense.

I can assure you that this is not the case at all. I maybe had a slight town lean on Ico going into night 1. But I picked emps because I thought he was the least likely to be nightkilled last night.

My reasons for thinking Icon/emps is unlikely:

• alimdia is like the worst night kill choice for an Icon/emps scum team. I was the only person that was more mis-lynchable and Icon knew that I would be confirmed town today. I get that Icon thought alimdia was a power role, but he KNEW that I was confirmed town. You and Datisi have probably been the two most popular town reads this game - why do you both survive this long if Icon/emps are scum together?
  
• The setup makes a lot more sense with emps being town than with you being town. If emps is town, then we have an informational role, a protective role, and a red herring role (which serves as an equal distraction to both town and scum if you are informed mafia) - that feels like a reasonable and creative setup. If you are town, then we have three semi-confirmable informational roles, no protective power roles, and scum have no way of combating your 'informed' ability.

Tracker is more dangerous than FN, and him not killing you gets him some towncred, which you're giving him here. Why would I kill Alim instead of Icon when he was more TR and the player I thought was Tracker?

As for the setup, maybe I can see your point but why would I claim this role if I were scum? It doesn't exactly show me in the best light (until there was no Tracker, which I had no way of knowing at the time of claiming.)

[Luca Blight]

And Wicked, to say me/Datisi makes the most sense defies all logic and sense.

If me/Datisi were a team I would have claimed Tracker and won the game. Icon had just said he thought I was Tracker. Why would I claim a role that could so easily come from scum?

So you're saying:

If you claim tracker, then you win.
If you don't claim tracker, then we shouldn't lynch you because you didn't claim tracker.

So basically this means that you and Datisi should just get auto win because there's no town tracker?

Fwiw, even if one of you had claimed tracker, I wouldn't be so quick to view you as confirmed town.

Seriously, take a look back at the times of claiming, how little time passed between each one, and ask yourself if it makes sense that me and Datisi are a team when there was no Tracker claim, neither of us claim it nor hesitate in claiming. And you're telling me that after this, we're the MOST likely team?

[Luca Blight]

Fwiw, even if one of you had claimed tracker, I wouldn't be so quick to view you as confirmed town.

This line just shows that you are indeed biased, or deluded. A Tracker claim wins the game, for sure.

But now because neither me nor Datisi claimed Tracker, we could still be scum because scum might deliberately not claim Tracker for some reason??

There is, therefore, literally no line of reasoning that will be accepted here, and I might as well be arguing with a brick-wall.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked: I haven’t played much as scum for a while, but I’m less interested as scum and enjoy playing as Town more.

I’d probably play in a very laid-back way and go with the flow instead of actively trying to push lynches etc.

---

The only reason I gave emps a pass was because

I was sheeping Datisi and Icon

who were my top TR's for most of the game.

I was willing to look at alternatives, but

it was a closed-shop

. As I said, I TR Datisi and I thought Icon was Tracker, and between them they were unwilling to look at emps, you, or Alim. I also genuinely thought Pops was the best lynch Yesterday.

There was no-one else who was going to be lynched that day.

I had no way of knowing emps would come in and hammer without providing any further content.

It feels like you were playing to your self-described scum meta.

I am town. On day 1, I thought Menalque was scum but I was the only person voting for him. I was dissatisfied with the way things were going so I made a case and encouraged people to join me. He got lynched. It turned out to be incorrect but I still got my way because I actively made a push for it. Town is supposed to push for what they believe in rather than sit back and let others call all the shots.

I understand that pops was your preferred lynch yesterday. But if you are town then you should have pushed for emps to contribute something before day's end if you thought he might be scum coasting.

And the underlined bit seems like a poor excuse. You are experienced enough to know that you run the risk of an early hammer by putting someone at L-1.

[Luca Blight]

And not only would neither me nor Datisi claim Tracker, but I'd claim the Town version of my scum role, which would hold no water whatsoever.

That's brilliant.

[Luca Blight]

Wicked, there is no line of reasoning that will change your opinion, that much is clear.

I'm done trying to make you see sense.

[Luca Blight]

I am town. On day 1, I thought Menalque was scum but I was the only person voting for him. I was dissatisfied with the way things were going so I made a case and encouraged people to join me. He got lynched. It turned out to be incorrect but I still got my way because I actively made a push for it. Town is supposed to push for what they believe in rather than sit back and let others call all the shots.

Just in response to this - I pushed Aldu more than you pushed Menalque, before reconsidering my opinion. I also pushed Alim for a fair portion of D1. You were much more laid-back than I was D1.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Example of Luca pushing his SR D1

also @Aldu
when you get the chance a basic readslist with an explanation or two would be gucci
k thx

Town:
alimdia -- for reasons I've said before, and I mostly agree with Ico's points on him (and anything I don't agree with I just think is null).
Ico -- Ico's been making a lot of sense. The progression of the read on Menalque is natural, and I like the poking at Wicked.
Menalque -- the earlier tunneling and the later "oh crap was I tunneling" seem town to me, I've had similar experiences. I'm still looking forward to more content on non-Wimpy stuff, though.
Datisi -- kinda like a towner version of Menalque. Posted a lot but a good variety, not just on Wimpy.
emps -- lot of posting, not a lot of content. When he came in with post 599 and saying "i honestly have no fucking clue what my reads are tbh" that seemed town to me. I think scum would most likely push Wimpy or Menalque, rather than risk appearing wishy-washy. Leaning town, but still close to null.

Scum:
Wimpy -- pretty much what I've said before. Although the fact that he straight up replaced out makes me think his behavior wasn't as alignment indicative as I thought.
Luca -- too much on the sidelines, too much pushing the popular wagons. Probably not scum with Wimpy or Wicked.
Wicked -- see my previous post.

The more I look at this post the more the hypocrisy burns a hole in it.

He says I’m scummy for pushing Wimpy and Wicked, but look who’s in his scumpool. How can he suspect me for having similar reads to him? That is not a mindset that makes sense. I also feel like he’s buddying Icon, and his emps townread doesn’t make sense given emps actually pushed Wimpy as much as I did. It also feels like he’s opportunistically positioning to jump on Wicked while shading me as the one ‘pushing main wagons from the sidelines’.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Aldu

@Alim:

If you are Town then remember that it's easier for scum to read you correctly than it is for Town to do so.

I don't think Aldu's level of confidence that you are Town was justified at the time he made his read.

He's hedging by scumreading the popular wagons while scumreading me for holding the same opinion.

He suspects me but is waiting for someone else (Alim, for example) to make the push before committing himself, while keeping himself open to hop on the 'easier' wagons at any time.

He's inventing reasons to Town-lean emps, by first townreading him for

not pushing Wimpy

, and then when pointed out that emps did in fact push Wimpy a lot, he changed it to townreading emps for

pushing Wimpy while feeling comfortable in the spotlight

. That is invented and not a natural progression of thought.

More votes on this wagon, please.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't have the time to respond to everything because I have to go to sleep now, but one quick thing:

And not only would neither me nor Datisi claim Tracker, but I'd claim the Town version of my scum role,

which would hold no water whatsoever.

That's brilliant.

If no-one else is claiming Tracker then

that pretty much makes me conftown as well, because there would be no other function for the Backup-Tracker.

It would be entirely useless without my role.

Evidently you

did

think your claim might be believed when you first claimed it.

I feel like I'm being perfectly reasonable - I'm reading your posts, I'm responding to all your comments, I'm not voting for you right now and I don't even want to lynch you today. Believe me, I'm putting a lot of thought into this. There's no need to call me deluded or a brick wall.

[Luca Blight]

At the time I didn't know there was no Tracker, so with that in mind it is a pretty shit fake-claim. Unless you think I saw Icon claim VT and then within a minute decided to claim this role because it suddenly would make sense. There was not even time to process that level of thought.

And I'm frustrated by your 2411 post. I am starting to feel like whatever I say you're not going to accept my argument. I don't mean to cause offence but it's a frustrating position to be in. I'd rather you just lynch me today because if you're insisting that I'm scum after everything then the game is lost anyway.

[Luca Blight]

But yeah, sorry for saying that, I understand it's a difficult position for you as well and I think in general this game you've made a lot of sense.

I'll take a break and cool off.

[Wickedestjr]

It's all good, you're fine.

I'm still open to 'emps-scum', it's just not the way I'm leaning at the present time. And again, I feel like catching the scum in {Ico/Datisi} helps sort you and emps.

I'll admit that your frustration does feel kinda genuine but I'll think about all this more tomorrow.

[Datisi]

Just woke up, quick points I wanna put down:

1) the reason why I want to confirm that me/Icon aren't a team is because I just know I'm going to be kept alive as paranoia fuel for tomorrow even if we do lynch Icon today - especially since Wicked won't get killed due to "doc" being on him

2) i don't think it's luca/icon (though at this point I'm not even sure) since they were 2/3 of my strongest TRs this game plus i really think the alimdia kill makes not much sense then since alimdia was likely to gun after emps, i was likely to gun after alimdia, and wicked dying would take away a conftown.

3) i thought about it but i don't think there's a scum tracker since Tracker as a role becomes much stronger once only one scum is left - and it seems very swingy and unbalanced for town to GAIN a strong PR once they lynch correctly - plus in this scenario scum would've fakeclaimed tracker

4) i was protecting emps since i genuinely thought that my actual SR'S, those more involved with the Mena lynch had a higher chance of flipping scum, especially with alimdia constantly going after emps which was pinging me like all hell