Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[PvtUrist]

btw, GL's current play reminds me of one of ARB's old scumplay articles (couldn't find it ) where you tunnel town for the majority of a day, deny town actual discussion, and then settle for a compromise town lynch at deadline.

You said you were going to case GL but if you have, I don’t see it. The above is the only thing resembling a case I can find.

What is your case on GL being scum?

Wrote in #466 that I'll give my GL case once more people pitched in their thoughts. I'll do it in 2-3 hours.

PvtUrist came into the game in a tough spot, his slot under scrutiny as his predecessor barely engaged at any point. His actions were to:
- defend and buddy Titus (to the point of absurdity - trust me there is no universe where PvtUrist believes that hammer was pro-town)

Yeah, I actually believe the hammer's intention was pro-town. I'm not the type of person to make up shit like that.

PtvUrist you say you’ve been following the game since D1. What was your read on TGS?

Light townread, will elaborate in a few hours. I haven't felt any scum tone coming from him nor scumteam interactions.

I'm fine with being hammered provide town promises to lynch GL!MW come lylo, not unlike GL's statement in #491.

[PvtUrist]

I'm confident that GL flips scum.

Also here's a good simple scumtell for the newbies - town almost

never

states "I'm confident" like this. It's fake.

Ever have English teachers tell you the golden rule of "show, don't tell"? When townies play mafia, they naturally show their thoughts and their emotions. They don't have to

tell us

that they're confident in anything, they just are. It shows in how they speak or argue.

PvtUrist, on the other hand,

knows that I'm town

. It is inherently awkward for him to argue to lynch me because he knows it's a false lynch and a fake scumread. Which shows in how he talks about it - he has to pretend to be confident and try to project that emotion instead of just, yknow, feeling it.

Appeal to authority again

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.07

Colorado River, USA

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

GuiltyLion

(3): Titus, Rise, PvtUrist

PvtUrist

(3): faüstiv, GayBabyJailor, GuiltyLion

Not Voting

(1): Map Wolf

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-27 21:00:00).

Mod notes:

PvtUrist replaces TheGildedSun. Nancy Drew is our backup mod.[/area]

[GuiltyLion]

Light townread, will elaborate in a few hours. I haven't felt any scum tone coming from him nor scumteam interactions.

This is a bizarre way to refer to a slot that you replaced into.

Appeal to authority again

What does this even mean? Who or what authority am I appealing to? I made a straightforward argument that speaks for itself in that post, I didn't appeal to anybody else's opinion. I have no idea what this even means lol

[faüstiv]

the vote was bad because you fencesat on the two throughout the day and threw the vote on when the Titus wagon was gaining momentum. sure you scumread titus more than GL but you still didn't place a vote, so to me that's a fencesit when you're explicitly stating that you believe that at least one is mafia.

then 393 you vote Titus. You state that you believe TGS could be scum but TGS wasn't voting at that stage. What if TGS hammered Titus and Titus flipped town?

I didn't like the vote or the timing of the vote for that reason.

Well if someone hammered Titus, then they'd get policy lynched next day.

That's why I didn't fear a hammer. As for the fencesitting, you're right on it. I didn't feel like committing to a vote before that point.

What do you mean by this?

[GuiltyLion]

@faustiv I'm happy to flip to Map Wolf as well, see if PvtUrist is serious about his willingness to vote on that slot

[PvtUrist]

Light townread, will elaborate in a few hours. I haven't felt any scum tone coming from him nor scumteam interactions.

This is a bizarre way to refer to a slot that you replaced into.

Thought faustiv referred to GBJ

I townread him before replacing in (inb4 GL says ofcourse I'd say this as scum ).

[PvtUrist]

This is not a GL case, just an interesting and perhaps not-so-relevant observation. Will be occupied for the next hour.

GL seems to have a case of imposing his definite beliefs upon what must be or must not be. Examples; how I must not believe the D1 hammer is town aligned, and how my definite statement must not be town aligned because tone or something.

This is not an attempt at shading, just something I found interesting to possibly discuss postgame. I personally heavily dislike definites (eg, lying is always bad or being honest is always good), so this may be an interesting personality clash, disregarding the difference in alignment.

Irrelevant post over.

[PvtUrist]

Here's the GL case.

First, some ideas I've gotten from reading through his ISO. It's still based on the GL!MW theory, as currently by POE, I have no other scumreads in this game.

-

GL gets through D1 with busywork interactions

with MW (both distancing and townreading without actually pushing his read) and minor comments with the rest of the thread. Notice he was almost entirely passive throughout D1, which turns in the other direction D2.

-

GL has lylo and mislynches setup quite early in the game.

Notice his late D1 reads revolving to townreading obvtown (faustiv and Rise), and occasionally shading (but not actively pushing) more lynchable players (Titus, TGS, GBJ). He has MW within bussable range if needed, but not of a threat of a real lynch.

-

Townreads BS throughout D1

- from GL's post, it seems he understands BS's lynchbait playstyle and has used this to his advantage. He knew town would make the BS lynch without his interference, and may instead benefit from 1)townpoints for being the only one to correctly townread BS, and 2)pushing D2 mislynch on the player most aggresively pushing BS's lynch.

-

D2 consists of a complete change of playstyle from passive to aggressive, pushing for Titus's mislynch by appealing to authority

(of which he denies), and

no other reasons to scumread Titus

. Also denies town town-aligned interaction for the majority of D2, then switching to the policy lynch come deadline (because there were no good discussion during D2, which was caused by whom?)

Scum require 3 mislynches, therefore GL's plan would be based around that. D1 mislynch is self-explanatory (BS's lynchbait playstyle), D2 mislych would be whoever is the most lynchable by virtue of BS's push (Titus) OR compromise lynch if that doesn't go through (TGS). D3 I'd imagine falls within a Titus/TGS/GBJ mislynch, whoever makes it that far. GL's push on MW is merely bussing; it's more likely for one of them to survive by bussing than both endgaming from the current gamestate.

[PvtUrist]

VOTE: Map Wolf

page 2 reads list looks fake

First post, interacted with MW. This is null at best, busywork at worst.

I think they are a new player who is warming up to forum mafia and is doing very well in terms of doing research (MafiaScum Wiki) on terms and tactics. I like that.

couldn't newbie scum want to read about terms and tactics as well? Why is that indicative of town alignment?

First scum ping; the comment felt more setting paranoia into town than actually sorting for town.

At the moment I agree with faustiv on GBJ/Blatant Scum slots being town and therefore I will grant faustiv a D1 townread as well, though I get the feeling they're gonna be that "10% chance of deep wolf" slot that I randomly get paranoid about from time to time

Second ping; townreads faustiv, but adds the "10% chance of deep wolf" comment for extra fence sitability. Also first case of "appeal to authority", with the "I will grant faustiv a D1 townread as well" comment, seemingly placing himself at a higher level than the rest of the players.

Now I'll admit putting everyone neutral by default is pretty stupid as I realise there's 3/4 chance they are town. I don't make conclusions because I don't have any knowledge that would make me sure on alignments.

The problem is if you "don't make conclusions" then it's:

a) hard to see your genuine thought process
and
b) super convenient for you to change the way you vote/read things later in the game without having to explain what changed, when, and why.

And that also ties into the larger point of like - if you weren't making conclusions then what were you hoping to gain from posting them?

further I would also kinda reframe it as I'm not asking for

"conclusions"

(implying some kind of final and definitive read) more than just like

"judgments"

. Saying somebody "could be town or scum" doesn't give any actual insight into what you are thinking. Saying "I think [x] is town for [y] reason" is far more useful to players trying to sort you, even if you then decide you were wrong later. It's also makes it a lot harder for scum to fake convincingly

Fluff that seems towny, but doesn't actually contribute anything to town.

@Map Wolf

- I would like your thoughts on Rise, now that she has posted and come to your defense.

Aand another comment towards MW without pitching in opinions of his own.

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

cmon Titus this isn't really saying anything

First Titus shade (busywork, not beneficial to town, sets up futher mislynches)

So I say again, this whole "troll/hiding = scum" argument is weak and I am currently much more interested in pressing elsewhere, particularly people who are opting to go for the laziest and most popular scumread currently available in the game.

The last part of the large post of GL's townread on BS. I wish to direct attention to where he inclined to pursue "pressing elsewhere,

particularly people who are opting to go for the laziest

and most popular scumread currently available in the game", then read his intentions of policy lynching late D2 before replacement.

I didn't like the way Titus gave a purely mechanical reason for voting onto the Map Wolf wagon but there's also not really much to read there beyond that, Titus is also kinda hard for me to read in general. Could be scum but not my top priority rn.

Second Titus shade. Shades Titus for mech arguments (which he personally makes), not giving more reads (which he does), and further shading Titus by implying "she is hard for him to read", which isn't a argument for Titus being scum. It does however, align with the mislynch setup argument.

That's the most blatant cc search I have seen.

seriously, ask yourself why Titus, someone who has played easily double digit if not triple digit games here since 2013, thinks a player claiming doc at L-1 is "the most blatant cc search" she's ever seen?

pure exaggeration because she felt she needed an excuse to hammer the doc D1

Second appeal to authority/mech argument. Realise his continued focus throughout the entirety of D2 is on the result (BS townflip), not the intention (Titus hammering a scummy player and preventing the loss of a Doc to CC), which is definitely scum aligned. Also note his definite statement that "it is impossible for hammering a scummy softclaim is town aligned", with him being such an experienced player, he would know better than to spread such misinformation as town.

Yeah, I do feel a bit personally responsible for the Blatant lynch. I get it if I'm grilled today. (Although I'm still not convinced you're town, Guilty.)

Sure, but I don't hold you responsible at all. The people I'd look at are the coasters and whiteknighters here. BS's play benefitted scum. Even though the lynch was wrong, it was pro town. Those happen sometimes.

this post also suggests that Rise/Titus probably aren't a team which is ++townpoints for Rise. Titus is buddying her here.

Titus shade, Rise pocket. Again, not involving himself or his thought in anyway that actually contributes to town: only seemingly so.

[PvtUrist]

Taking a page from GL's books:

I'm confident that GL flips scum.

Also here's a good simple scumtell for the newbies - town almost

never

states "I'm confident" like this. It's fake.

Ever have English teachers tell you the golden rule of "show, don't tell"? When townies play mafia, they naturally show their thoughts and their emotions. They don't have to

tell us

that they're confident in anything, they just are. It shows in how they speak or argue.

PvtUrist, on the other hand,

knows that I'm town

. It is inherently awkward for him to argue to lynch me because he knows it's a false lynch and a fake scumread. Which shows in how he talks about it - he has to pretend to be confident and try to project that emotion instead of just, yknow, feeling it.

The D2 push on Titus was anything but genuinely emotional. Frustration? Perhaps only what you wished to express. The push was definite: authoriterian, no other viewpoint possible. I'd say #492 applies more to yourself than my pushes.

[Map Wolf]

Honestly tempted to just hammer GL. Only reason I am not yet doing so is because we'd probably insta-lose if I did and he flipped town.

[Titus]

I'm not down to lynch Map today. I pretty much only want GL.

[Rise]

Hi Ptv (can I call you that?) glad you're here. Like seriously. Just finished catching up and reading your posts was a breath of fresh air cause it reflects a lot of what my gut's been telling me this whole game. I've been second guessing myself but not anymore. Don't care about anyone else, but you get my townread.

Will share some more thoughts later. In short, I'm a believer in !scumGuilty. Furthermore, a Guilty lynch is almost essential today. @everyone not voting Guilty, you gotta see that there's too much controversy surrounding that slot. Even if you don't think he's scum, he's gonna give us the most information. So yeah guys, think about pulling the trigger.

[GayBabyJailor]

UNVOTE: pvt

forgot i was voting him still :p

[faüstiv]

yeah I still don’t see guilty flipping scum here.

GBJ why did you unvote

[faüstiv]

infact this whole shift onto GL is concerning.

One scum in Ptv/Map. Not sure whether they’re both maf yet.

[Titus]

infact this whole shift onto GL is concerning.

One scum in Ptv/Map. Not sure whether they’re both maf yet.

*sigh*

[faüstiv]

So I want to go over the votes from yesterday and try to analyse it a bit.

Blatant Scum (5): GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf, faüstiv, Gjt, Titus
TheGildedSun (2): Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion
Guilty Lion (1): Rise
Not Voting (1): TheGildedSun

I feel like BS was a really obvious vote for most of yesterday. I feel like there almost certainly is at least one scum among the people not voting BS, due to WIFOM. TGS is a good candidate to be honest...

I think if Titus is town,

then there is a good chance that

the scum pairing might be GL and Rise/TGS.

This does kind of make it less likely that Faustiv (and from your perspective I) would be scum, since you would want to be more hesitant to have your vote on the lynched person. This doesn't of course vindicate Titus, since that hammer kind of came out of the blue as far as I am concerned.

I want to also think about GL. What if he was scum? What would the state of the game then be? I can see it being possible that his way of trying to townread players is a way for us to do that in return. Feels like he assumes the best in everyone, except Titus (although I don't blame him too hard for that).

I am kind of tempting to join the wagon on TGS, but there is kind of an issue with that in theory. If we assume one of GL/Titus is scum, then a mislynch today could essentially force us to choose between one of them tomorrow. That would not be that great of a prospect for us, so if TGS was town, then she'd be the perfect push for today.

Honestly tempted to just hammer GL. Only reason I am not yet doing so is because we'd probably insta-lose if I did and he flipped town.

So map announces here that he thinks it’s GL and Rise/TGS

He then has hammer between GL and the TGS slot but refuses to hammer, even though he scunreads both slots. His reason for not hammering screams of self concern for his slot rather than it being detrimental for town. I think Map knows GL flips town if he hammers him.

VOTE: Map Wolf

let’s go

[faüstiv]

infact this whole shift onto GL is concerning.

One scum in Ptv/Map. Not sure whether they’re both maf yet.

*sigh*

why is he scum? I really don’t see it.

[Titus]

I can do map, if I have to but we really should lynch GL.

[Titus]

infact this whole shift onto GL is concerning.

One scum in Ptv/Map. Not sure whether they’re both maf yet.

*sigh*

why is he scum? I really don’t see it.

Spam garbage argument
Either lynch it or Compromise mislynch

Repeat

[PvtUrist]

Hi Ptv (can I call you that?)

Ptv

/O\

But sure, call me anything you want.

[Map Wolf]

@everyone not voting Guilty, you gotta see that there's too much controversy surrounding that slot. Even if you don't think he's scum, he's gonna give us the most information. So yeah guys, think about pulling the trigger.

Can't exactly vote GL if it would result in a lynch.

[Map Wolf]

o just hammer GL. Only reason I am not yet doing so is because we'd probably insta-lose if I did and he flipped town.

So map announces here that he thinks it’s GL and Rise/TGS

He then has hammer between GL and the TGS slot but refuses to hammer, even though he scunreads both slots. His reason for not hammering screams of self concern for his slot rather than it being detrimental for town. I think Map knows GL flips town if he hammers him.

I think there probably is a scum between GL/TGS, but hammering one of them, and then having them flip town would basically screw us over.

Fixed broken quote tag --P