Guns & Roses III [Game over]

[Something_Smart]

@SOmething_Smart, any reason why you didn't RVS? Just curious.

I almost never do, for a variety of reasons, but mainly that I don't think random votes are necessary to leave RVS (lol), I don't think early wagons generally help to sort people, and I use my vote very sparingly so that it carries more weight.

[Something_Smart]

Also, I just looked through all your posts again. You post very neutral, answer and ask a bunch of questions but haven't drawn any conclusions from them.
You have too many posts for me to link all of them, but I encourage everyone to ISO SOmething_Smart up to Post 310.

I think thats a very strong scumtell.

Ooh, I could take this in a lot of different directions.

For now let's go with this one. Let's assume that town-S_S draws plenty of conclusions, even early on. Since this is something very noticeable, obviously I'd be aware of it. Now, when playing in this game, with tons of people who know me, do you really think I wouldn't attempt to replicate that?

[Something_Smart]

This post strikes me as scummy for not wanting to commit

Why's that scummy?

[Amrun]

As for AF, he might be scum, might not. I’m not familiar with him enough to sort playstyle from alignment indicative actions right away. So I’ll pressure him as I please, thank you.

Can you elaborate more on how my posts feel forced then? Talk about my progression on Creature as well. How are you reading him atm?

I already did this in a lot of detail, actually. This does not read like a genuine effort to sort because you didn’t even read my ISO with any intention.

[Amrun]

Alim: Why is asking questions without sharing your conclusions scummy, especially this early game?

[Something_Smart]

But tbh I townlean him because I think he’s actually trying to work with me, even if I still think he’s been a bit overly oppositional

My apologies. Better to be overly oppositional than overly conciliatory, imo. I'd rather people have no reads than bad reads

[Something_Smart]

Also I like that he didn’t hop onto the ‘mena townslipped’ thing and actively called it out

Why do you like that?

[AaronFrost]

I have read your ISO and right now this is your case against me.

VOTE: AaronFrost

His posts read very forced. His progression on creature also sucks.

He calls out creature for something and then commits the exact same offense very quickly by voting Iconeum, who is, IMO, lower hanging fruit than Creature.

I do, I just think scum would be more worried about how they appear and that Creature will sort himself as the game goes on. In other words, Creature seems like he doesn’t gaf and was posting whatever popped into his mind and probably forgot about AF in that moment.

AF, on the other hand, seems to me like he cares how he comes off - a lot.

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

Your progression here is bad as well. You don't actually elaborate on what feels forced about them.

Fair point about the Icon vote, but I did get some useful reactions out of it so I'm pretty happy with that. 281 and 284 read like you know that both Icon and Creature are town, and I don't see how the vote translates to me caring how I come off when I've been attempting to sort other players.

[Salamence20]

Aarons relationship with Creature will tell me more about his progression on creature.

Not entirely sure what you mean by my relationship with Creature. Like are you talking about in the context of this game or do you want to know my past experience playing with him?

Past expierence Obviously.

I think its a good place to put my vote for now. His 149 bugs me and he hasn't done anything to make me think hes town yet.

Why does 149 bug you though?

I've already answered this.

Looking at your 149 again. I think it looks like took my 35 seriously, I don't understand how Menal "Townslipped."

Also I'm not sure what you are going on about in reference to Pretentious 41.

I just re-read all your posts, it seems like you only have post 149 as a case against him? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thats correct. But you can also add the seemingly random vote on me in 169 as well. And 177? Does he normally say things like that or is he trying to act confident or act like creature?

@SOmething_Smart, any reason why you didn't RVS? Just curious.

Also, I just looked through all your posts again. You post very neutral, answer and ask a bunch of questions but haven't drawn any conclusions from them.
You have too many posts for me to link all of them, but I encourage everyone to ISO SOmething_Smart up to Post 310.

I think thats a very strong scumtell.

YOu have lots of posts, made lots of neutral statements or fluff, but haven't had any conclusions.

VOTE: SOmething_Smart

I dig this. SS Probably should get some pressure and make some actual moves instead of seemingly fencesitting.

I'm townreading Sala, Menalque, Dogwatch, Creature, S_S, Ico. I don't think the Ico wagon is very good and would like to make another attempt to kickstart the AF one

Explain Salamence, Dogwatch and Creature for me.

I don't see a lot of scum!agenda AF here. This is town trying to sort.

I mean at the time I don't think the three mentioned have done much to earn a townread so

@SOmething_Smart, any reason why you didn't RVS? Just curious.

Also, I just looked through all your posts again.

You post very neutral, answer and ask a bunch of questions but haven't drawn any conclusions from them.

You have too many posts for me to link all of them, but I encourage everyone to ISO SOmething_Smart up to Post 310.

I think thats a very strong scumtell.

YOu have lots of posts, made lots of neutral statements or fluff, but haven't had any conclusions.

VOTE: SOmething_Smart

This is literally just SS and it’s NAI

hmmm.

I mean, in the only other game with SS he did do things I felt made no sense to me at the time, but I wasn't there during the early game rereading it made me get townvibes from him. I'm not getting those yet.

Also fencesitting is not NAI, its opportunism which is scummy.

@SOmething_Smart, any reason why you didn't RVS? Just curious.

I almost never do, for a variety of reasons, but mainly that I don't think random votes are necessary to leave RVS (lol), I don't think early wagons generally help to sort people, and I use my vote very sparingly so that it carries more weight.

Regardless of alignment... BORRRRRRRRRINNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG

[Something_Smart]

SS Probably should get some pressure and make some actual moves instead of seemingly fencesitting.

Good luck with that one, I work on my own schedule and not anyone else's.

Is there anything specific you want my opinion on?

[Something_Smart]

Also fencesitting is not NAI, its opportunism which is scummy.

Fencesitting and opportunism are literally opposites...?

Fencesitting is refusing to commit to a stance, even if there are good reasons. Opportunism is taking a stance without a good reason.

Both are context dependent, both can be scummy in some situations, and both can be personality indicative. But they are not the same thing.

[Something_Smart]

But you can also add the seemingly random vote on me in 169 as well.

What do you think is scummy about that post? Is it purely the fact that he voted someone you know to be town?

[Amrun]

@AaronFrost:

Was your vote on Iconeum an attempt to reaction fish?

[DogWatch]

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

Also as I look at this it actually seems kind of perspective slippy? Like calling AFF out for capitalising on “obvious town mistakes” sounds a little too much like she knows they’re town, esp considering her null read on icon? Plus calling icon the most likely mislynch

This is exactly what I couldn't put my finger on when Amrun answered my questions last night. I think if you're going to label what Creature did as the "exact same offense" then you'd be scumreading him too regardless of who AF voted for. The more I think about it, AF seems more and more town and Amrun/Creature are looking more sus. There's been two instances of Amrun turning suspicion away from Creature, once when she voted almidia for his vote on Creature and then again in post 284. Like I'm having a hard time articulating it exactly but it seems to come from the perspective of someone who knows Creature's posts were kinda scummy, acknowledges it because she has to, but doesn't want to follow up on it.

VOTE: Amrun

[Salamence20]

Menalque seems like a strong player. Hes pulled people into Amrun wagon over Aaron. He obviously has game relations with Datisi and Ico. If anything the ico vote seems to be the worse for being a sheeping vote then having to give an explanation in the next post.

Also:

Like I wanted to see if any scum would take the bait of hopping on the Aaron wagon but I’m impatient and I already feel okay about amrun!scum

Guilty Lion and Amrun voted AF. Were you aware of this before you voted Amrun? Because it seems to me you weren't.

I don't think his case is that good either, tbh. The game was still early enough for Amrun to vote Alimdia for "not answering his question," which then changes to "random vote on creature." There wasn't much action going on and Amrun wanted to push someone to get a wagon going. I have no issue with it.

Also as I look at this it actually seems kind of perspective slippy? Like calling AFF out for capitalising on “obvious town mistakes” sounds a little too much like she knows they’re town, esp considering her null read on icon? Plus calling icon the most likely mislynch

I mean does Amrun have expierence with Icon? she may know hes "mislynch bait" like you do.

Like I think if amrun!scum then icon probably has to be town

I got the exact opposite reaction than you did. I feel theres a good chance they are both scum from 285 if either flips red. 285 reads as something scum would say to divert a wagon from scum. In that case AF is bait.

Still want ico's flip first.

This also feels like a weird thing to call out from pret given that she’s clearly familiar with him per her opening post

Like pret not having stances is v NAI imo and I would expect anyone who knows him to know that

So calling it out seems like fishing for town points and to look like scum hunting

I don't think theres any townpoints to be given from talking with Pretentious. Its just banter if you ask me.

[Amrun]

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

Also as I look at this it actually seems kind of perspective slippy? Like calling AFF out for capitalising on “obvious town mistakes” sounds a little too much like she knows they’re town, esp considering her null read on icon? Plus calling icon the most likely mislynch

This is exactly what I couldn't put my finger on when Amrun answered my questions last night. I think if you're going to label what Creature did as the "exact same offense" then you'd be scumreading him too regardless of who AF voted for. The more I think about it, AF seems more and more town and Amrun/Creature are looking more sus. There's been two instances of Amrun turning suspicion away from Creature, once when she voted almidia for his vote on Creature and then again in post 284. Like I'm having a hard time articulating it exactly but it seems to come from the perspective of someone who knows Creature's posts were kinda scummy, acknowledges it because she has to, but doesn't want to follow up on it.

VOTE: Amrun

This is a terrible post.

A) What Creature did and what AF are similar, but not exactly the same; even if they were exactly the same, it is absolutely fine to read people differently for doing the same thing. I never found what Creature did scummy; I found what AF did scummy because he supposedly thought what Creature did was scummy and then turned around and did it himself more egregiously.

B) Creature’s posts are not scummy. They are extremely typical creature posts. I think creature is more likely to flip town than scum, but creature has not received any significant pressure, so this part is nonsensical. I’m defending him from what? For what purpose? WHY would I, as scum, think Creature was scummy but not want to follow up on it? Why would I do that as town?

The only feasible response is that you think I am scum with creature. Therefore, why wouldn’t you vote Creature? By your own logic, my scumminess is predicated upon this so-called avoidance of wanting to pursue him, therefore Creature should be flipped first.

You seem to be an odd duck that matches to your own drummer, so I’m not sure yet that any of this is NAI. However, it is still bad.

[Salamence20]

Also fencesitting is not NAI, its opportunism which is scummy.

Fencesitting and opportunism are literally opposites...?

Fencesitting is refusing to commit to a stance, even if there are good reasons. Opportunism is taking a stance without a good reason.

Both are context dependent, both can be scummy in some situations, and both can be personality indicative. But they are not the same thing.

Yes they are, you fencesit to wait for an opportunity, then you pounce on it.

Fencesitting is how you can give an excuse for mislynching.

Example: "I think SS is town but I'm not completely sold at this time" *SS gets wagoned* "Imma vote SS cause I think he could flip scum" *SS Flips Town* "SS was town it wasn't a good wagon guys"
(Thats assuming its coming from scum btw)

[Salamence20]

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

Also as I look at this it actually seems kind of perspective slippy? Like calling AFF out for capitalising on “obvious town mistakes” sounds a little too much like she knows they’re town, esp considering her null read on icon? Plus calling icon the most likely mislynch

This is exactly what I couldn't put my finger on when Amrun answered my questions last night. I think if you're going to label what Creature did as the "exact same offense" then you'd be scumreading him too regardless of who AF voted for. The more I think about it, AF seems more and more town and Amrun/Creature are looking more sus. There's been two instances of Amrun turning suspicion away from Creature, once when she voted almidia for his vote on Creature and then again in post 284. Like I'm having a hard time articulating it exactly but it seems to come from the perspective of someone who knows Creature's posts were kinda scummy, acknowledges it because she has to, but doesn't want to follow up on it.

VOTE: Amrun

Chainsaw

VOTE: Dogwatch

Nice of you to rejoin us. Care for some tea?

[Salamence20]

But you can also add the seemingly random vote on me in 169 as well.

What do you think is scummy about that post? Is it purely the fact that he voted someone you know to be town?

I just don't know where it came from.

[Amrun]

You know what? Yes.

VOTE: DogWatch

Inb4 “this vote is scummy”

[Salamence20]

Right now I like for scum:

Icon/Dogwatch/DDL(being weird if you ask me; also never answered why he scumreads me, probably because it has to do with my rvs vote on Datisi)/

Creature needs to come back here.
I need Aaron to answer my question.
Pretentious will always be in my scumreads because its pretentious.

Everyone else can be town for today.

[Something_Smart]

Example: "I think SS is town but I'm not completely sold at this time" *SS gets wagoned* "Imma vote SS cause I think he could flip scum" *SS Flips Town* "SS was town it wasn't a good wagon guys"
(Thats assuming its coming from scum btw)

Well yes. Of course that's a scummy behavior. But just because I'm not committing to anything now, it doesn't mean that when I do commit to something I won't have a good reason for it.

Like fencesitting is part of that scum equation, but it's only part of it, and it's not the bad part-- the bad part is sheeping onto a bad wagon without a good reason.

[Something_Smart]

I just don't know where it came from.

But it must have come from somewhere, regardless of his alignment, no?

It's not like he's scum and made that vote knowing that if asked to justify it all he could do was stare blankly.

[Something_Smart]

If he's being secretive about his reasons, ask him about them. Don't assume they don't exist.

[Something_Smart]

*It, lol.

Sorry for some reason I thought Iconeum was a he.