Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[popsofctown]

Well callforjudgement is making a quality-of-life argument, not a power argument. If they added a new gun to Grand Theft Call of the Overwatch: Reach that did 95% as much damage as the best gun in the game, but every time you reloaded the gun you had to type the Contra Code into your controller, someone could object to that gun because they don't mind losing to strong guns but they mind feeling obligated to punch in the Contra Code.

There's a colorable argument that vengeful still results in some lesser amount of leashing, I've never seen the role in action but the town could try to get consensus on slots that should be forced to claim until they locate a VT claim, and then lynch the vengeful townie and direct him/her to shoot the VT claim to avoid the risk of dropping some town power with the vengeful kill. The inconvenience is lesser or at least different, though, because it will never require players who are possibly in different time zones unvoting and revoting in a specific order so that a specific player gets a hammer.

Skimming open setup reviews and finished games I casually browse, I think vengeful is getting used very, very rarely these days and I think it would be a good candidate for being considered Not Normal.
pedit: Plum is a ninja

[implosion]

It is worth mentioning that vengeful was only greylist before. It was whitelisted when the greylist was abolished in the OP of this thread.

cfj's and Plum's arguments are essentially why supersaint isn't allowed. The reason vengeful is whitelisted is because it doesn't screw things up *too* badly - since the choice of who dies can only ever be made by town, you never get a situation where the game ends in a way that's unexpected and outside of the town's control. If an unclaimed supersaint gets hammered the day before lylo before they have a chance to claim, game's over and that's a lot of heartache for no real reason. Town basically feels cheated out of a game in that situation. And normal games are about making sure that hard expectations, such as "the town should never lose after mislynching outside of xylo, unless they screw up in some other way" are met.

Vengeful is a fairly rare role to see but that isn't necessarily reason to remove it. A role doesn't need to see the light of day often to serve a purpose from a design standpoint of being available.

[callforjudgement]

Supersaint makes vote/hammer order relevant; it normally isn't in Normals.

As such, I don't think this would be a good idea, because optimal play in a game that could potentially contain a Supersaint is to for town to leash who hammers on every single lynch (even if there isn't an actual Supersaint there). That would end up making all Normals worse, even ones without the role, for a very minimal game; so the role should probably be blacklisted.

I don't understand why Vengeful is allowed then, because the Vengeful modifier is far more powerful, allowing the lynched to kill literally anyone.

When you lynch a Vengeful, it doesn't matter who hammered. So there's no point in leashing it just because the setup might have a Vengeful: the potential existence of a Vengeful doesn't completely change the way most of the setup plays out (although it does have an impact on 2:1 lylo). When Supersaints are allowed, even if they aren't in the setup, it's always correct to make sure that the second-scummiest player is the hammer for every day's lynch – there's no theoretical downside, and a very small potential upside – which affects every single Normal game from then on, because nobody can know for certain that there isn't a Supersaint.

A similar example: compare a Vigilante who can kill anyone, to a Vigilante who can kill only people who have triple-posted. The first is Normal; the second is less powerful, and abNormal, because we don't want to discourage people from tripleposting altogether in Normals just in case there happens to be a Triple-Post Vigilante lying around.

[Amrun]

Why isn’t vanillizer normal?

[callforjudgement]

Why isn’t vanillizer normal?

It works best in role madness, so if a game wants a vanillaiser it probably also wants to be a Theme game. In games with only a few power roles, town vanillaisers normally backfire, and scum vanillaisers are hard to balance (roleblockers are hard enough to balance in games with few power roles, and vanillaisers have a much stronger version of the same effect).

There are also two versions of the role, so you'd have to pick one to Normalise if you were going to (the version where the player knows their role has changed, and the version which leaves a permanent roleblocking effect on them).

[Dunnstral]

I've never seen the version of vanillizer that permanently roleblocks, I've always seen mods use the version that informs you

[Wake1]

I understand why SS isn't whitelisted now. Thanks all for taking your time to explain it.

[Wake1]

I think I really like the 'Announcing' and 'Loud' modifiers.

Is there any way to create the opposites of those modifiers, where the target is informed that and action or target targeted them?

'Announcing' and 'Loud' are on player A, and player A targets player B. I'd like to see another version that is on player B instead. Like 'Listening' and/or 'Careful.'

[Wake1]

Also, could a modifier be made in which a Scum faction can't kill Town?

Like a Serial Killer that's given a modifier so it can't kill Town.

I think the variety of new PRs and modifiers is wonderful, and I'd like to see if any more could be created.

[popsofctown]

I think I really like the 'Announcing' and 'Loud' modifiers.

Is there any way to create the opposites of those modifiers, where the target is informed that and action or target targeted them?

'Announcing' and 'Loud' are on player A, and player A targets player B. I'd like to see another version that is on player B instead. Like 'Listening' and/or 'Careful.'

Reflexive Watcher is functionally identical to what you're suggesting as a counterpart to Loud. I rolled Reflexive Watcher in a recent large theme. It is not considered normal.
I've never heard of it being used, but stitching terms together, the counterpart to "Announcing" would Reflexive Voyeur.

Reading the wiki page for "Reflexive" just now, it sounds a lot more like the role I was given should have been called "Reflexive tracker", since I "tracked" people who targeted me, if I watched them I wouldn't necessarily have any actions to learn about. So similarly maybe the other one should be called Reflexive Follower.

Reflexive Watcher is the most common variant of this concept, I know I've heard of the role being used before the game I had it, with the questionable naming convention included.

I suspect the main thing keeping Reflexive Watcher off of normal queue greylist or whitelist is the complexity and rule-bending element of it, especially the way it's usually described, as though you are performing a night action somehow. Yet if you're targeted with a roleblock as Reflexive Watcher or Reflexive Tracker, you get a result. This complexity could be undesirable in the normal queue, if the town roleblocker roleblocks the town reflexive watcher, and the town reflexive watcher half fakeclaims, "I tracked <town roleblocker> last night, he did something, but his target didn't die. I think he's probably town." (possibly desirable over an overtly true claim to bait the mafia roleblock later) The town roleblocker might say, "he can't have gotten that result, lynch all liars", and it's the kind of interaction that mostly doesn't happen with the existing whitelisted roles I think.

I like your concept of describing it as a passive that modifies that actives that target that player, I think it's a lot cleaner than the standard way of describing it. Even with improved templating I'm not sure if it will ever be okay for normal queue, it might be better for normal queue to not have such a wide possibility space.

[popsofctown]

Also, could a modifier be made in which a Scum faction can't kill Town?

Like a Serial Killer that's given a modifier so it can't kill Town.

I think the variety of new PRs and modifiers is wonderful, and I'd like to see if any more could be created.

The Loyal and Disloyal modifiers overlap this design space a lot; they are normal and are very popular to use lately. They don't achieve the effect of creating an SK that can only kill mafia. That might be narrow enough not to warrant its own additional modifier.

It's already hard to win as SK so I'm skeptical it can be a good balance decision to give an SK a modifier that removes its ability to shoot a townie that badly wants to lynch the SK. You could probably design a reasonable multiball setup where scum can only crosskill, though. That'd be outside the purview of Normal Queue since currently Normal Queue is no multiball evar.

[Wake1]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

[popsofctown]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software . Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.

[Wake1]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software . Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.

Ah, I see.

Maybe the one where they're notified would be alright for Normals?

I want to try to create new roles for Normal games. I keep trying to think of different layers or angels to create fair yet fun roles.

[TemporalLich]

Angel isn't a normal role at least in this dimension

[OkaPoka]

i think an interesting role would be something like a town of salem jailor


or just the interrogation part and ability to execute

[Gamma Emerald]

You can just call a role that watches or voyeurs itself a “self-ability/self-targeting ability” role

Also I think Jailor is a weird role because of how in probably most utilizations it would have to pre-determine a target during the day phase, necessitating player mindfulness
Honestly it doesn’t feel like it fits the Normal scope

[Amrun]

Why isn’t vanillizer normal?

It works best in role madness, so if a game wants a vanillaiser it probably also wants to be a Theme game. In games with only a few power roles, town vanillaisers normally backfire, and scum vanillaisers are hard to balance (roleblockers are hard enough to balance in games with few power roles, and vanillaisers have a much stronger version of the same effect).

There are also two versions of the role, so you'd have to pick one to Normalise if you were going to (the version where the player knows their role has changed, and the version which leaves a permanent roleblocking effect on them).

I don’t see any of these as barriers to normal. I do think a normal version should know their role has changed.

Something being “hard to balance” or an implication it would be used rarely doesn’t make it not normal.

[Dunnstral]

i think an interesting role would be something like a town of salem jailor


or just the interrogation part and ability to execute

This gets a downvote from me

[Ircher]

i think an interesting role would be something like a town of salem jailor


or just the interrogation part and ability to execute

I think this isn't a good idea for multiple reasons: 1) it's a complex role making it harder for newer players to understand 2) it's a powerful role, which makes it difficult to balance around and 3) it's name is too similar to Jailkeeper that some confusion may arise from it. While the third problem could easily be solved by giving it a new name, the other two points still stand. Most normal roles avoid combining many actions into one role; those that fo generally have a long name (e.g.: Town Combined Friendly Neighbor Neighborizer), and this is considered importantly internally because it deters people from making setups that are "normal" by the physical rules but not "normal" in the spirit of the rules.

[Gamma Emerald]

Following Ircher’s response I think another issue with the role is how it creates only a temporary neighborhood, I think that kinda doesn’t fit what Normals aim for

[Amrun]

I agree with the above. However, I think a vanillizer is a perfectly normal role and should be whitelisted. This is my campaign.

[callforjudgement]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software :(. Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.

You can do it by giving the player in question post access to the PT but banning them from saying anything. At least one Theme did. (However, there's currently a rule in Normals that the set of players with access to a PT must be known by everyone in that PT, which bans this sort of mechanic; setups that violate that would be moving away from what I think of as a Normal, at least.)

[callforjudgement]

i think an interesting role would be something like a town of salem jailor


or just the interrogation part and ability to execute

I think this isn't a good idea for multiple reasons: 1) it's a complex role making it harder for newer players to understand 2) it's a powerful role, which makes it difficult to balance around and 3) it's name is too similar to Jailkeeper that some confusion may arise from it. While the third problem could easily be solved by giving it a new name, the other two points still stand. Most normal roles avoid combining many actions into one role; those that fo generally have a long name (e.g.: Town Combined Friendly Neighbor Neighborizer), and this is considered importantly internally because it deters people from making setups that are "normal" by the physical rules but not "normal" in the spirit of the rules.

Also 4) timing issues. If you want it to work regardless of when people are online, you have to make selecting the target a day action, which means extra moderation complexity compared to the typical Normal.

(The other issues are real, too.)

[BBmolla]

I'm gonna go on a old tirade

I still think the Motion Detector should be broken down into its two halves as normal roles as well.

To be clear what I mean:

Motion Detector - Learns if any actions were performed by or on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.
Role1 - Learns if any actions were performed on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.
Role2 - Learns if any actions were performed by a player, but not what they were.

CFJ gave his opinion a while back and basically said they'd go unused and cited Follower's low usage as an example, but I personally hate Followers because categorizing abilities is fucking nonsense and awkward as fuck anyway. I think these would fill very specific niches where town is just slightly slightly underpowered. Role1 may be less useful, but I could absolutely use Role2 in multiple setups.