Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[popsofctown]

CFJ gave his opinion a while back and basically said they'd go unused and cited Follower's low usage as an example,

Vengeful is a fairly rare role to see but that isn't necessarily reason to remove it.

I call for a cagematch between callforjudgement and implosion starting immediately.

[gobbledygook]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software . Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.

It is possible as long as the player who is eavesdropping does not accidentally post in the Private Topic.

[mastina]

I'm gonna go on a old tirade

I still think the Motion Detector should be broken down into its two halves as normal roles as well.

To be clear what I mean:

Motion Detector - Learns if any actions were performed by or on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.
Role1 - Learns if any actions were performed on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.
Role2 - Learns if any actions were performed by a player, but not what they were.

CFJ gave his opinion a while back and basically said they'd go unused and cited Follower's low usage as an example, but I personally hate Followers because categorizing abilities is fucking nonsense and awkward as fuck anyway. I think these would fill very specific niches where town is just slightly slightly underpowered. Role1 may be less useful, but I could absolutely use Role2 in multiple setups.

I mean, I advocated for Motion Detector = weaker variant of Watcher/Voyeur who only sees if someone has been visited or not, but not what actions were taken or who took them,
And for Reporter = weaker variant of Tracker/Follower who only sees if someone has acted or not, but not what actions they took or who they took them on.

I was overruled on that and to this day I remain bitter about it.

If I had my way nowadays though, it'd be:
Tracker: as-is, sees who the target player visits
Follower: as-is, sees what actions the target player takes
Reporter: sees if the target takes actions, but not what type
Watcher: as-is, sees any players targeting the target player
Voyeur: as-is, sees any actions targeting the target player
Motion Detector: sees if the target has any actions taken on them, but not what type
Some new role name (e.g. Action Detector): the current Motion Detector--sees if the target has any actions taken on them and/or if the target took any actions, but cannot differentiate between the two.

[Dunnstral]

I like the current version of motion detector. It's an investigative type role that leaves room for doubt in the results

[TemporalLich]

The current version of Motion Detector strikes me as more flavorful imo.

The role that is to a Watcher what a Reporter is to a Tracker should be called an Inspector or something like that.

Flavor is based on seeing if the target has been "tampered with".

Basically how I'd do the action investigators that can see neither who did it nor what kind of action it was:

Motion Detector - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has acted or if the target has been acted upon. Can't tell the difference between the two.
Reporter - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has acted.
Inspector - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has been acted upon.
Combined Reporter Inspector - The name for a motion detector that can tell the difference.

[Dunnstral]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Beholder

I'd like to see this role renamed to journalist and made normal, and used as a replacement for a doctor in a setup with a cop (among other uses to the role, it would have to be implemented carefully in setups)

Possible variant: Only gets info if the person they're watching dies

[Alisae]

wow dunn thats a cool role you found there!

[Wake1]

Is it possible to add any Normal roles that can affect votes?

Like a role that can either null a vote or force someone who isn't voting to vote?

[TemporalLich]

Is it possible to add any Normal roles that can affect votes?

Like a role that can either null a vote or force someone who isn't voting to vote?

There are multiple reasons a vote alterer isn't Normal.

1. Day roles aren't Normal.
2. It isn't clear on whether vote alterers take effect immediately or when the next VC is posted.
3. Either resolution to reason 2 would result in a bastard role, either for introducing uncertainty where your vote is (and by potentially making the votes lie), or by

allowing direct moderator influence

4. Voting roles in general affect how lynching takes place, and having to worry about someone being a doublevoter or governor and ruining a plan to L-1 with intent is not normal.

[Wake1]

Is it possible to add any Normal roles that can affect votes?

Like a role that can either null a vote or force someone who isn't voting to vote?

There are multiple reasons a vote alterer isn't Normal.

1. Day roles aren't Normal.
2. It isn't clear on whether vote alterers take effect immediately or when the next VC is posted.
3. Either resolution to reason 2 would result in a bastard role, either for introducing uncertainty where your vote is (and by potentially making the votes lie), or by

allowing direct moderator influence

4. Voting roles in general affect how lynching takes place, and having to worry about someone being a doublevoter or governor and ruining a plan to L-1 with intent is not normal.

Thank you for explaining that Lich.

[BBmolla]

Motion Detector - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has acted or if the target has been acted upon. Can't tell the difference between the two.
Reporter - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has acted.
Inspector - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has been acted upon.
Combined Reporter Inspector - The name for a motion detector that can tell the difference.

Name the last one Action Detector and I’m for these names

I suggested Reporter then split as Motion Detector and Action Detector but people thought it’d be confusing to change what Motion Detector does

[TemporalLich]

Action Detector would be a good name for a combined reporter inspector, yeah. (and it makes it more clear that the reporter part doesn't undermine the inspector part)

[Amrun]

VANILLIZER SHPULD BE NORMAL

[Amrun]

I like mastina’s list though.

[TemporalLich]

Vanillaizer is probably the one role I'd unblacklist but it's very hard to justify it being fit for Normal because even though it's a weaker way to completely hose a PR than a Vigilante it involves a role change (assuming it's the Vanillaizer that informs the target their role was changed and flips like "

Named Townie

turned

Vanilla Townie

"). (named townie isn't normal but named with the allowed names being Named or Chocolate might be worth considering).

And the alternate forme, Seraph Rogue (fixed roleblocker), would have a very hard time being normalized since Seraph Knight (fixed doctor) isn't normal.

It would be best considered for unblacklisting when we inevitably get the greylist back, though I want Lynchproof (and by extension Deathproof) blacklisted since the lynch is supposed to be normal in a normal.

I highly doubt Vanillaizer will be considered Normal even in a greylist world though, mostly because role changes are not normal.

[Wake1]

How about like a 'Gifter' role/modifier?

Instead of using a PR, you give someone else at night a 1-Shot PR ability that they could use the

next

night.

[Gamma Emerald]

P sure Seraph Knight is fixed BG but whatever
Speaking of BG I recall once being told BG is a redirection of a kill onto the user, does that mean it shouldn’t be normal? FYI this is a joke but if we want to get serious about it I don’t mind.

[TemporalLich]

P sure Seraph Knight is fixed BG but whatever
Speaking of BG I recall once being told BG is a redirection of a kill onto the user, does that mean it shouldn’t be normal? FYI this is a joke but if we want to get serious about it I don’t mind.

If someone shot the person the Seraph Knight is protecting the Seraph Knight doesn't die, so Seraph Knight is a fixed doctor, not a fixed bodyguard.

[mastina]

Speaking of BG I recall once being told BG is a redirection of a kill onto the user, does that mean it shouldn’t be normal? FYI this is a joke but if we want to get serious about it I don’t mind.

Bodyguard took a long time to figure out a Normal standard of; that version you're talking about was one of the actually used variants on the role and role resolution (it existed, and commonly so!), but when we blacklisted redirection roles from Normals, we went through the process of normalizing Bodyguards

not

working that way.

[Wake1]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

[Amrun]

Vanillaizer is probably the one role I'd unblacklist but it's very hard to justify it being fit for Normal because even though it's a weaker way to completely hose a PR than a Vigilante it involves a role change (assuming it's the Vanillaizer that informs the target their role was changed and flips like "

Named Townie

turned

Vanilla Townie

"). (named townie isn't normal but named with the allowed names being Named or Chocolate might be worth considering).

And the alternate forme, Seraph Rogue (fixed roleblocker), would have a very hard time being normalized since Seraph Knight (fixed doctor) isn't normal.

It would be best considered for unblacklisting when we inevitably get the greylist back, though I want Lynchproof (and by extension Deathproof) blacklisted since the lynch is supposed to be normal in a normal.

I highly doubt Vanillaizer will be considered Normal even in a greylist world though, mostly because role changes are not normal.

I don’t think the way vanillizer changes roles (if the target is told, which they should be, in a normal version) is inherently abnormal. Neapolitan is normal, so vanillizer should be.

[gobbledygook]

I think traitor needs to be reworked again.

[Amrun]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

[popsofctown]

I'm not sure what is meant by layers.

[SleepyKrew]

Spoiler: What do you call a role madness game after it's completed?

ogre