Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[implosion]

There's some stuff recently in this thread that I think has merit (in particular I agree with the people that are saying the current incarnation of traitor is really unfun, and I've kind of thought that for a while, and there might be a good way to rework it or otherwise change it). I'll try to get another update to normal guidelines in at some point in the near-ish future.

[Amrun]

Yes thank you! Also plz reconsider vanillizer as normal (at least for scum).

[Wake1]

Could Bomb be normalized, perchance?

If NK'd the Bomb also takes out its attacker, which could be neat.

[Dunnstral]

^That role is very unfun to play against as mafia

[Wake1]

Maybe Paranoid Gun Owner instead to make it not just dangerous for Mafia? Another reactive one-time killing role could be neat.

[Plum]

No, those roles should not be Normal. Normals have not included reflexive roles, so that players of either alignment take risks only related to active or passive abilities. The general rule of thumb is that if it exists as an active ability it should be present only in active form unless the passive form is a personal immunity. This preserves an environment of direct player agency which is prioritised in the current approach to Normal games.

[popsofctown]

The general rule of thumb is that if it exists as an active ability it should be present only in active form unless the passive form is a personal immunity. This preserves an environment of direct player agency which is prioritised in the current approach to Normal games.

What about the Compulsively Reflexively Self Targeting Framers in Normal Queue? Based on this rule, Framer ought to be normal and Miller ought to be nonnormal. Cops worrying about the risk that the person they're thinking of checking would be targeted by the framer is a risk based on player agency. Cops worrying that the person they're targeting was randomly given the Miller role by the mod isn't based on agency. And I wouldn't really consider inverting the result "immunity", the outcome in practice definitely isn't the same as if the cop never did the check at all.

I actually think it's a good rule of thumb and want to take the edgy position that Miller is a bad role. In cop check scenario doesn't happen due to Day 1 Miller claims, but the game play of Day 1 Miller claims themselves are pretty yucky to me. It can't be meaningfully different from day 1 IC unless scum day 1 Miller fakeclaims are an option, and regardless of whether you want to argue it's a good or bad play in your next normal the amount of success to that is -random-. You see your role and the other scum roles and you do it or don't do it and then if the setup isn't amenable to a Miller fakeclaim you're in trouble.

[Wake1]

I wish there could be allowed a variation of Miller that would give the correct result if Copped, but if tracked/watched/followed/voyeured it'd automatically turn up a positive result.

[skitter30]

How are you envisioning that working?

Like if that role waa tracked, what would you seem

[skitter30]

*?

[Wake1]

How are you envisioning that working?

Like if that role waa tracked, what would you seem

Eh, good question.

[gobbledygook]

There's some stuff recently in this thread that I think has merit (in particular I agree with the people that are saying the current incarnation of traitor is really unfun, and I've kind of thought that for a while, and there might be a good way to rework it or otherwise change it). I'll try to get another update to normal guidelines in at some point in the near-ish future.

Thank you! I appreciate knowing my concerns have been heard (even if they are not implemented).

Might I also throw Strongman as an all alignment modifier into the mix?

[skitter30]

How are you envisioning that working?

Like if that role waa tracked, what would you seem

Eh, good question.

Or, i think more interestingly, what would a watcher-miller look like?

[Plum]

The general rule of thumb is that if it exists as an active ability it should be present only in active form unless the passive form is a personal immunity. This preserves an environment of direct player agency which is prioritised in the current approach to Normal games.

What about the Compulsively Reflexively Self Targeting Framers in Normal Queue? Based on this rule, Framer ought to be normal and Miller ought to be nonnormal. Cops worrying about the risk that the person they're thinking of checking would be targeted by the framer is a risk based on player agency. Cops worrying that the person they're targeting was randomly given the Miller role by the mod isn't based on agency. And I wouldn't really consider inverting the result "immunity", the outcome in practice definitely isn't the same as if the cop never did the check at all.

I actually think it's a good rule of thumb and want to take the edgy position that Miller is a bad role. In cop check scenario doesn't happen due to Day 1 Miller claims, but the game play of Day 1 Miller claims themselves are pretty yucky to me. It can't be meaningfully different from day 1 IC unless scum day 1 Miller fakeclaims are an option, and regardless of whether you want to argue it's a good or bad play in your next normal the amount of success to that is -random-. You see your role and the other scum roles and you do it or don't do it and then if the setup isn't amenable to a Miller fakeclaim you're in trouble.

On the one hand, Normal games don't parse passive abilities as either Reflexive or Self-Targeting, neither of which actually exist in Normal roles. I think the existence of Miller is technically fine based on the ability to claim,

but

actually I overall agree, Miller is a bad role for Normal Games. Miller exists to help solve the problem of the unlimited guaranteed Sane Cop in Normal games. The thing is that Normal Games support multiple better overlapping and non-overlapping setup solutions to the presence of a Cop. Limited-shot/limited-Night Cops and Weak Cops exist. Loyal and Disloyal roles exist. Vanilla Cop and Neapolitan exist. All of these serve as checks on or alternatives to the investigative power of a Full Cop that do not rely on making a loophole that allows directly lying to the Cop about investigation results. The Miller is the last clumsy leftover role with this type of clause after the removal of investigation-immune Godfather from the Normal role list. I think Wake88's idea to make a "Tracker/Watcher Miller" goes in exactly the wrong direction (and is even worse than Miller because at least there's a specific "guilty" result a Cop gets on Miller and Mafia; there's no one "positive" result a Tracker or Watcher can get automatically - what happens if a Tracker targets this role on a Night when the Mafia choose not to kill, for instance?) - but I'll go further and say that as-is, Ninja is a role that should not be Normal. Ninja

and

Miller can both be excluded and Ascetic (plus Rolestopper) can serve those functions where necessary, and is highly preferable because it only creates "no result" results and not false results. Miller and Ninja only serve to give

direct false results

to Cops and Watchers respectively and are bad ways of limiting the power of these two powerful roles. The NRG has and should continue to make sure that setups that pass review do not have ungated full Cops or Watchers without mitigation and counterplay built into the setup - but they don't need Millers or Ninjas to do this.

[popsofctown]

I agree with Plum's post.

Compulsive Visitor is considered normal, Wake88, that might be close enough to what you're looking for. I think that role casts doubt on watcher/tracker results in a healthy way.

[Amrun]

I agree Ninja shouldn’t be normal. I was shocked it was when I checked.

[Gamma Emerald]

Could Bomb be normalized, perchance?

If NK'd the Bomb also takes out its attacker, which could be neat.

Maybe Paranoid Gun Owner instead to make it not just dangerous for Mafia? Another reactive one-time killing role could be neat.

I like this tbh
maybe a Bomb that has to be turned on to work properly rather than just being a passive role would be more balanced

[Gamma Emerald]

How are you envisioning that working?

Like if that role waa tracked, what would you seem

I'd assume a random target/one player that dies that night

[Gamma Emerald]

I agree Ninja shouldn’t be normal. I was shocked it was when I checked.

why

[Alisae]

Can suicide bomber be normal?

[Amrun]

I agree Ninja shouldn’t be normal. I was shocked it was when I checked.

why

Just didn’t fit what I fundamentally felt was normal. For me, normals you should generally be able to trust that your results are accurate.

[RadiantCowbells]

I actually agree that Ninja is a terrible role btw

[Amrun]

Idk I just feel like if you track X to nowhere in a normal you shouldn’t have to speculate “but what if they’re a ninja?”

That’s for themes.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think watcher ninja is fine

I think tracker ninja is just... no

[Amrun]

Ninja implies tracker though, just by existing.