Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[RadiantCowbells]

Or watcher.

[Amrun]

True. Watcher is an unpopular role.

I agree ninja/watcher combo is much less odious though.

I think ninja should just not be normal though.

Wouldn’t cry if miller wasn’t normal either tbh.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think ninja is fine if we trust reviewers and not fine if we don't.

[TemporalLich]

I just think Normal needs to be designed with a top-down approach instead of a bottom-up approach.

[RadiantCowbells]

What do you mean by 328

[TemporalLich]

What do you mean by 328

Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.

There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ehhh

[Plum]

Idk I just feel like if you track X to nowhere in a normal you shouldn’t have to speculate “but what if they’re a ninja?”

That’s for themes.

Oh shoot I forgot and I thought that Ninja works like Ascetic for Tracker results, I forgot that it actually gives direct false information for both. Yeah I agree screw that, Ninja is just not good for Normals.

I've brought up the idea of a Watcher variant that doesn't see factional kill actions, and I've also seen the "Personal" modifier proposed as for a generic "your investigative action does not see factional actions" which in Normal Games means specifically factional kill options. I like Watcher's potential outside the area of getting a hard guilty on an observed kill, and a role with a built-in limitation seems better than a role which introduces false information into the equation. The more I think about it, the more I think the rule for Normals should be "informational roles with known, built-in limitations" not "informational roles but other roles can cause information generated to be actually false" across the board.

[TemporalLich]

I only agree with blacklisting Ninja if Miller gets blacklisted as well, since the principle changes from "Moderators shall not lie except in results." to "Moderators shall never lie about game info".

I know this makes Cop broken in Normals, but balance is secondary to principles outlining Normalcy if we're going with a top-down Normal. (unless of course Balance is put first which is very reasonable for a top-down Normal)

[Plum]

I do not believe Cop will be broken in Normals if Miller is removed from the Normal whitelist because it is not one of the main mechanisms keeping Cop in check in the current Normal Game environment. I can look over the last 1.5 years of Normal Games or whatever but my impression is that Cop is used sparingly already because it is a powerful role (the same is true of Watcher). Gating the Cop as limited-shot or limited-Night or using alternative alignment-related investigation roles like Neapolitan and/or modifiers like Weak, Loyal, and Disloyal, are far more common and I would argue effective ways to include Cop and Cop-like roles in Normal games without making the role broken than the mere fact that Miller is a legal role.

[TemporalLich]

oh yeah. Ungated Cop might still be very powerful without a miller.

[Amrun]

What do you mean by 328

Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.

There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.

I completely agree. We need to agree on what, fundamentally, IS the concept of a normal game, and then allow/disallow roles based on their adherence to that concept.

Axe ninja and Miller. They’re not needed and contradict the idea of Normal IMO.

Vanillizer, on the other hand, does not, IMO. At this point in time the “normal” designation seems arbitrary.

Personally, I would also axe multitasking! But that’s more debatable.

P-edit: Yes, it would be powerful. That’s a question of balance, not which roles are normal. Currently, ungated cops are not usually used, and that trend would continue.

[gobbledygook]

Amrun, what is your concept of a normal that multitasking defeats?

[Ircher]

Why should we axe multitasking?

[RadiantCowbells]

I agree that Multitasking is a very problematic role in design and really should be axed. Honestly I think all normals should be only 1 action per night.

I don't agree that everything else necessarily is.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why should we axe multitasking?

Because in practice we end up with games where someone has a confirmable action like a fruit vendor and the game reaches 1 scum remaining and if that fruit vendor is multitasking scum win the game on account of having been reduced to one player and having multitasking.

The argument can be made that town can account for it existing but I think that them having to creates a massive amount of entirely pointless swing where town have to try to decide if they want to play around the modifier or not

[Amrun]

Amrun, what is your concept of a normal that multitasking defeats?

It doesn’t directly defy normality in the way that ninja does.

It complicates the mechanics of scum. Let’s say in a mini, you have one scum left alive, and you are able to know through role information that X player performed Y action. A kill also happens.

With multitasking in the game, this means little. Without multitasking in the game, this is a mechanical clear.

For NORMAL, I prefer not to have that type of WIFOM. Mechanical clears DO NOT happen very often and that situation is rare, so I don’t worry about it giving the town an advantage. It lets everyone play off of the same expectations, scum and town included.

[Amrun]

Also, exactly what RC said, if his response was better stated.

[TemporalLich]

Ideally balance concerns as it concerns a setup should be reserved for review.

I really don't agree with axing Multitasking unless you want Normal to be synonymous with boring. If so, Combined should go as well (as it isn't clear if it counts as 1 or 2 actions).

[Amrun]

I think roles like multitasking, ninja, Miller, all have their place in mafia, but not in normals. To me, normals should be a space in which everyone knows the rules, the norms, and what to expect, exactly. Themes are where we turn those expectations on their heads.

[Ircher]

I agree that Multitasking is a very problematic role in design and really should be axed. Honestly I think all normals should be only 1 action per night.

I don't agree that everything else necessarily is.

I feel multitasking is only problematic because we currently allow hybrid roles. I think the original purpose of determining whether scum can kill and act at the same time is a fair design space for the modifier.
pedit: That's a fair take. I still think Multitasking is worth keeping as a balancing mechanism, but it would also be okay if we go back to where moderators had to publicly disclose whether scum can act and kill at the same time.

[RadiantCowbells]

Not synonymous with boring it's simply a bad kind of swing

Would be equally fine with all scum having multitasking or requiring the game to be entirely multitasking or not but be outed in ruleset.

It narrows some design space but makes the games better.

[gobbledygook]

Don’t we have a problem with town winning the majority of normal games? I feel like getting rid of multitasking makes that more of an issue.

[RadiantCowbells]

Keeping bad design because it helps scum is bad

Just make more scumsided setups.

[Amrun]

Ideally balance concerns as it concerns a setup should be reserved for review.

I really don't agree with axing Multitasking unless you want Normal to be synonymous with boring. If so, Combined should go as well (as it isn't clear if it counts as 1 or 2 actions).

I don’t even know what combined is.

I mean mountainous is fun. Basic mafia is fun and brings it back to basics. That’s the space for normals to occupy, IMO. PLUS, I have seen TONS of really cool set ups that didn’t utilize any of the above roles. Look at Plum’s last mini normal. It was really neat and kept town guessing and setup spec continuously through the game, but still met every expectation I have of a normal game.