Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Ircher]

Don’t we have a problem with town winning the majority of normal games? I feel like getting rid of multitasking makes that more of an issue.

I don't think that's an issue. Back in 2017 or so, scum won the majority of games. Since then, we recalibrated our balance preferences to be a bit more in favor of town, so winrates have gone up since then. We can always readjust the balancing function, so whether town or scum is winning more games is more of a matter of current site meta.

[Amrun]

Don’t we have a problem with town winning the majority of normal games? I feel like getting rid of multitasking makes that more of an issue.

How? Design balanced games, period.

A completely OK compromise is if it must be disclosed in rule set.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think you can very easily have fun, interesting games using only basic roles and thinking that's not true defeats the point of normalcy

[TemporalLich]

actually I think greylist should come back to encompass multitasking and the like. (and consider whether inherent multitasking should be a normal mechanic or not, I'm eh)

I really wish Greylist were normal again, I could think of a lot of interesting variants such as Loyalblocker, 1-shot Ascetic, Strongman as a modifier, Superstar, and Follower-Cop. It's the spice on top of the normal cake, I'd be okay with hybrid/multitasking/combined roles going in favor of restoring the greylist.

pedit: Combined allows you to use multiple role abilities, however you must use both abilities on one target.

[Amrun]

I think you can very easily have fun, interesting games using only basic roles and thinking that's not true defeats the point of normalcy

Agree 100%!


Here’s the Plum set up that I referred to earlier. I think it’s a fantastic positive example.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81010

P-edit: ew, combined can go too, for sure.

I preferred the grey list too.

[RadiantCowbells]

Most of those can already be made

[Alisae]

Can suicide bomber be normal?

[Ircher]

Can suicide bomber be normal?

I don't see any immediate issues other than it being a Day action.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think a setup needs five word combined roles with a billion affixes to be good

I think gunsmith vig 1-shot JK backup cop 6 by vs goon goon doctor is a very interesting setup to play

[Something_Smart]

I agree that Multitasking is a very problematic role in design and really should be axed. Honestly I think all normals should be only 1 action per night.

I'm at the other end of the spectrum here btw, I think the multitasking modifier should be removed and all scum should be multitasking by default. Forcing scum to give up their action if they're the last one alive creates positive feedback which is already a pretty big issue with mafia in general, and the tactical depth it adds is minimal (especially when people don't know if the last scum is non-multitasking or not).

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean I'm totally fine with that too

It just needs to be one or the other.

[Amrun]

For the record, so am I.

I hate the WIFOM of “can they or can’t they?” It needs to be standardized one way or the other.

[Alisae]

Can suicide bomber be normal?

I don't see any immediate issues other than it being a Day action.

both sides can have 1 so it being a day action is fine no?
and even then it can be night action

tbh, day could be a modifier thats normalized but only for certain roles.

[TemporalLich]

Most of those can already be made

Loyalblocker isn't the same thing as Loyal Roleblocker for example.

Here's how I'd define the variant roles:

Loyalblocker - Make a player unable to target players that they don't share an alignment with for the night (effectively making them Loyal for the night, or roleblocking them if they target outside their alignment)
1-shot Ascetic - Immune to non-kill actions the first night they are targeted by a non-kill action.
Strongman as a modifier - A modifier making you ignore roleblocking, protection, rolestopping, and immunities. Does not allow targeting commuting commuters.
Superstar - IC without the innocent part i.e. it doesn't confirm alignment. A variant of this might be publically revealing your role as if you were public role copped.
Follower-Cop - A weakened role cop that gets results in the term of a Follower. (probably a bad name tbh since it sounds like a hybrid role)

pedit: yeah confusing roles like Town 1-shot Weak Loyal Combined Neighborizer Friendly Neighbor isn't really normal and the normalcy part of the reviews should weed that out imo.

I prefer the idea of inherent multitasking being something the mod puts in the ruleset imo

[Dunnstral]

I wish I rolled gunsmith vig 1-shot JK backup cop in my normal games

I prefer the idea of inherent multitasking being something the mod puts in the ruleset imo

I like this option the best

[popsofctown]

Can suicide bomber be normal?

I was actually thinking like a minute ago "would like, night desperado be ok to be normal" but suicide bomber is even lower swing, so maybe it should be? I think I like.
This is a vig that dies after shooting right.



I strongly agree that multitasking shouldn't be a modifier that attaches to specific player slots. I'm kind of iffy about it attaching to "the mafia faction in general" too, actually, but I think that's just an aesthetic objection and I'd be ok with "factional actions can always be performed by a player even if the player perform another action the same night" which restores some symmetry but is way different conceptually from how things usually work.

Really if you use the current rules of the normal queue to add a mafia multitasking fruit vendor to the setup I'm not sure how you have a design intent that is "fun social deduction" rather than "get in the mod's head".


Watcher that can't see NK sounds like a super cool role. MariaR put that in her last minitheme.

[Plum]

I think that inherent multitasking as an option the moderator has to declare like inherent daytalk is probably fine to replace current rules. I'd probably even prefer "one action per Night limit unless Multitasking but factional kill doesn't count towards this limit".

Also while we're here can we standardize some things about backups? It's not clear rules as written if (or when) a Backup of a role inherits the modifiers of the role it backs up.

[TemporalLich]

Personal should be whitelisted imo

Backup to me doesn't inherit modifiers e.g. if a 1-shot Cop dies, a Backup Cop just becomes an ungated Cop.

[Plum]

Backup to me doesn't inherit modifiers e.g. if a 1-shot Cop dies, a Backup Cop just becomes an ungated Cop.

That's what I would say too, but it's not made clear in the Wiki.

[Oversoul]

I loved the greylist idea back when I played. However, I understand the point of it being removed. I would like to put forth the role modifier if Fragile - dies if targeted by an ability or if it uses an ability.

I also think it would be cool to break down the aspects of Strongman into its component parts (unblockable, unredirectable, and piercing), but that might not be suitable for normal games.

[Something_Smart]

I would like to put forth the role modifier if Fragile - dies if targeted by an ability or if it uses an ability.

That sounds so unfun to play...

[TemporalLich]

yeah, if anything "Suicide" (dies if it uses an ability) might be a worthy modifier in one world.

[Something_Smart]

That's closer, but I think it would encourage mods to put in roles like Suicide Doctor.

[Oversoul]

I would like to put forth the role modifier if Fragile - dies if targeted by an ability or if it uses an ability.

That sounds so unfun to play...

Coming from the man that doesn’t vote.

[Oversoul]

That's closer, but I think it would encourage mods to put in roles like Suicide Doctor.

Admittedly, giving it an ability and the Fragile modifier has very niche uses (doctor, blocker, inventor). However, it’s just food for thought.