Newbie 1973 | Mountain | Over

[CheekyTeeky]

Ok so nothing has changed for any of your reads since then?

[Mitillos]

I have only been skimming mostly, tbh. When my reads change, I'll be sure to mention it, though.
At this time, I'm largely waiting for the other replacements to also weigh in and then I'll go back and reread everything.

[chazary]

Well alrighty then.

For the sake of fairness; UNVOTE: EspeciallyTheLies. Or UNVOTE: Enter Whichever is correct you get it.

Even though I think ETL's prior activity is going to make it hard to not read this role as scum, I have to allow Enter to come into the game with a clean slate, even if that slate is actually quite dusty from all the desperate scribbling ETL did on it before. I'd like to hear their take on ETL's actions and their town/scumreads given the game so far before I revote.

[chazary]

I do agree that putting me at L-2 seems off but I can't totally argue against that because if there was someone I found suss and wanted to hear from I could see myself doing the same.

What seems "off" about being put at L-2? It wasn't a naked vote, and I disagree it was random.

When did L-2 become the new L-1?

Not being put at L-2 itself, but more the timing of it. And now after looking back at Arthur's previous posts his reasoning is also very suspicious. Hence my scumread.

But all this aside, in this post your quoting I was defending Arthur's vote. The off feeling was more guttural. But as I said I realize that it isn't something I'd put past myself as well. That is, again, until I read more into Arthur's past remarks about me, which seemed like he wasn't suspicious of me at all. Until an opportunity to lynch me, or anyone, arised.

[chazary]

-scum-

ETL; I mean, what needs to be said that hasn't been said already. First theres the Cheeky vote with no explanation. Then the, like I've said, nit picking of her gameplay. Now getting

very

heated because they're being questioned for their Cheeky vote. Why get so aggravated suddenly? Because Cheeky, the person you're pressing so hard, is defending herself?

Cheeky; much less concerned with her than I am with ETL. Again, the Arthur vote is the only thing making me suspicious. She also has a tendency to explain her gameplay in the following format; "if i'm town i'd do this because A. If i'm scum I'd do this because B." Sounds like she's pulling the self-aware card in order to keep from seeming too suspicious. Also might just be trying to explain for the newbs, i.e. myself.

Do you really think that ETL and Cheeky could be scum together?

Three different universes exist.

ETL and Cheeky are both scum and planned out this entire rivalry to distance themselves from each other. EXTREMELY unlikely now that ETL got so emotional and left the game.

ETL/Enter is scum because, well, do I have to keep listing everything they've said or done. I hope not. Weak and targeted scumreading. Highly defensive and emotional. Literally left the game rather than try to convince us of their townhood, which shouldn't have been such a daunting task if they were actually town. Especially since the heat, as far as votes go, wasn't even on them at the time of them quitting.

Cheeky is scum and ETL has just been having a very rough couple of days. See: Arthur vote explanation. But again, I definitely don't find this reason enough to vote her without going back and really analyzing her play so far, which I haven't had the chance to do yet.

And then a fourth; none are scum. But how boring is that?

[chazary]

For the third time, I voted for Chazary because I found him suspicious. Its not like I was trying to jump on the bandwagon to get him lynched. Now he's answered some of the questions and I don't find him as scummy, I'm unvoting him. I'd vote for EspeciallyTheLies now, but some idiot will probably think thats scummy as well.
I'd also rather people not get the wrong idea about me from misunderstanding my vote. UNVOTE: Chazary

Well that surely tipped the scales:

Post 161: "6) chazary1: Probably town"
Post 164: "Chazary hasn't done anything to scummy so far."
Post 209: "Well Chazary explains that he initially voted for me so that everyone would have a vote. He then switches to Penguin, someone else who has no votes.

I think it's forgivable because he just came out of inactivness and wasn't aware the game had moved out of RVS.

He explains this and unvotes Penguin."
Followed by the vote on Chazary in post 210.
Post 257: "I wasn't trying to lynch anyone, I just switched so there'd be a better chance of getting a read out of someone."
And the next important post is the one quoted above.

And now we come to the contradiction. First, why the sudden change of opinion when it comes to Chazary's alignment? One time you have nothing against him and suddenly you find him suspicious without even bothering to say what you find suspicious about him. Second, if you were indeed suspecting him, why did you watch from the sidelines instead of asking some questions yourself like I do right now? Unless by "he's answered some of the questions" you refer to your questions, which would be absolute nonsense considering you haven't asked him any questions. Also, I'm seeing a similar pattern here - what's with the defensive reaction?

"Some idiot will probably think that's scummy as well." ???

No we will not unless we have a good reason to believe so. But if your reasoning for voting ETL would have been similar to the one you have for voting Chazary, then how would you expect us to not think that's scummy? That's just playing the victim card right there.

I think this covers about everything I'd want to preface the following with.

VOTE: ArthurConyl

Here's my main question for you. What good points were made about me that you hadn't just previously, in literally the last post you made before your vote for me, defended or forgave? Or, alternatively, what made you change your mind about me in such short notice?

[chazary]

And this is what I am referring to when I say "good points", if that wasn't clear.

It looks like Mitillos and Darren want to lynch Chazary. It looks like a coupla other guys (including me) want to lynch ETL. While I think both of them are suspect, we should agree on one person, the most suspect person, to lynch. I think some good points have been made about Chazary. I want to hear more from him. VOTE: Chazary

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.12

Huayna Picchu, Andes, Peru

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Enter

(2): CheekyTeeky, PenguinPower

ArthurConyl

(2): Ph0enix, chazary

CheekyTeeky

(1): Enter

chazary

(1): Mitillos

Not Voting

(3): Farren, ArthurConyl, Pine

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-12-21 08:00:00).

Mod notes:

Enter is the new EspeciallyTheLies[/area]

[Enter]

Alright, I have duty in a few hours and I haven't slept (sorry, today ended up being significantly more busy than I intended), but I did skim up through page 8-ish. Normally I'd keep what I've got here as notes and use it to guide my reads - I think there's something to be said for keeping some thoughts to one's self until it's fully developed, but in light of the end of day being so close, I'll share what I have now and get a bit more in depth in ~ 36 hours.

=====

After reading some of PenguinPower's past ISOs (Micro 898, Alisae v Pine), I think I'm okay with PenguinPower.

What about these games made PenguinPower seem towny to you in the first two pages of the game?

Spoiler: FTR, PP's ISO up until this point

Hey, Cheeky!

VOTE: Cheeky

Good to see you.

Hey, Ph0neix. You may want to get an avatar as it helps players recognize you better.

I missed my chance for snark.

Sad...

Oh well...choo choo!

VOTE: Gyro

Interesting could you elaborate on what happened in the previous game that made you decide not to RVS?

My rule for meta-voting / RVS-voting:

1) If I was Town in the last completed game, then do the same thing I did last game (RVS vote if I did last game; don't if I didn't).
2) If I was scum in the last completed game, then don't do the same thing I did last game.

Last game, I RVS voted, and I was scum. Ergo, time to switch it up.

What’s the purpose of this?

So, despite utilizing RVS votes and interaction to help determine alignment of two players in the game so far, you feel it’s in the best interest of the game to deny us the ability to analyze your vote and interactions?

I actually think it’s a fair description of what you have done to this point. Obviously you will vote at some point later on, but you aren’t right now. I don’t particularly think you are lying about your motivations at this point, but idgi and it’s the opposite of what I like to do and how I get early reads.

Not yet. Still waiting on 4 slots, but I’m liking you and cheeky fn just based on interaction.

I've played Werewolf on other forums and I've played Mafia IRL. I more or less know how it works and I went through the wiki as well.

I observe that two people started off by voting. It seems a bit odd to me but maybe it's normal at the start of the game?

Arthur is aware of terms like "scummy" but not "RVS?"

Lmao look at these sweats, i do a joke vote on Fag0enix and everyone starts analysing it way to hard, classic D1 lynch material

Im just gonna say at least 1 of my voters are scum for sure, and Phoenix’s reaction of instantly voting me back seems cool beans

These feel strange and out of place.

Well it looks like Ph0enix voted Gyro back after Gyro voted him, but how come CheekyTeeky and PenguinPower voted for Gyro?

Arthur seems to be playing like he's holding a newbie card a little to hard for me to actually believe he's got one.

Page 2:
Pheonix uses too many words for me to feel comfortable with him right now, but his redirect towards Chazary is pro-town. Same for Gyro's redirect to Nomanssky.

HI PENGUIN!! ♥♥♥♥

I was lynched D1; my partner D2. I picked a fight with a Mason and didn't even realize he *was* a Mason.

Hey that was me!
hello again Farren! So glad you're town this game.

Join me in lynching scum on D1 again.
VOTE: Cheeky

I'd vote gyro just for the sheer principle of removing unpleasantness but I feel like.. that will probably sort itself out, much like chibiie

More shortly. Dealing with work BS at the moment.

I'm not sure if this is scum behavior, either that or he's really eager to vote. It's also odd that he is totally certain that Cheeky is scum when he hasn't done anything to indicate that. Remember this is his first post and he's certain someone is scum and votes him. I'm voting for him until he explains.
VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

How does my predecessor claiming to know Cheeky as scum implicate him?
What scenario does he act this way as scum? Please explain this post in more detail without trying to preempt shade with excessive explanation.

If Gyro's motives for voting Nomanssky were to apply pressure and/or perform a reaction test, I'd expect a different reaction to realizing that Nomanssky hadn't checked in. Voting elsewhere; unvoting; challenging my premises if he thought my logic was flawed. Not just acknowledging, leaving the vote in place, and saying nothing else.

Even if Nomanssky had checked in, I'd still find prioritizing lurker pressure over scumread pressure questionable, given the scumread in post 59 that Cheeky pointed out.

VOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

Response here might be a bit biased, because I actually liked Gyro on this page (as well as Pheonix, they both seemed genuine and direct), but the argument against Gyro here seems forced and fake.

Chazary vote hopping in 109 is awkward, but his tone is casual, which I like. Gyro also vote hops on this page which I like admittedly less.
Pheonix is defensive on Page 5.

I forget what the rule is called, but it should be noted that Farren calls three players scum and Arthur is in the middle in 137 while I am conveniently scum reading them both.

Chazary is coming off as very genuine and I like it.

I like the ArthurConyl votes on Page 7. Cheeky catches onto things that I've already noted (in the future - tenses are weird?) and I'm appreciative.

Farren and ETL are notably the only suspicious players on Arthur's reads list on Page 7.
===

VOTE: Farren for now. I'll get more into this later, but I think if you legitimately read his posts and what he's been doing, I don't think people should be as comfortable with this player as they've been acting.

[ArthurConyl]

I think this covers about everything I'd want to preface the following with.

VOTE: ArthurConyl

Here's my main question for you. What good points were made about me that you hadn't just previously, in literally the last post you made before your vote for me, defended or forgave? Or, alternatively, what made you change your mind about me in such short notice?

I unvoted because I read your posts after my vote and I thought they were leaning towards town. If you read my voting post I stated that we weren't getting anywhere with ETL and I voted for you because I found you the most suspicious other than ETL. Call me scum or a trash player for it, but the other reason is that I didn't want everyone to misunderstand and think I was scum for that vote. Now some people do think I'm scum, so I guess the damage is done. It would've been worse if I didn't unvote though.

[chazary]

And I understand that much. You’re still dodging the question though. What exactly made me suspicious other than the two naked votes in RVS that you yourself said were forgivable right before voting me. Idc about the unvote that’s not as suspicious to me as it might be to others. I’m just still confused as to your reason to vote me in the first place.

[CheekyTeeky]

Arthur seems like lynch bait.

[Mitillos]

@Penguin: Early on, you suggested that Ph0enix get an avatar. Is there a reason you didn't make the same suggestion to Arthur? Also, could you please try to avoid making multiple sequential posts and just collect everything into one post? You have nine posts in a row once and five posts in a row twice.

So, chaz's posts have been showing improvement. Now I'm beginning to wonder if my scumread should be modified to a newbread. He needs to be re-assessed more carefully, just like Ph0enix. Unfortunately, the next two people on my scumreads list are replace-ins, so I have to wait for them to say stuff, before I can re-evaluate their relative scumminess. Having said that:

@Cheeky: I've read your back-and-forth with ETL more carefully. Your case makes sense to me. ETL's response seems like flailing. Nothing changed for me there. Was there anything in particular you wanted me to address?

@Enter: Hello. I'm not sure what you mean when you mention Farren's post 137 there. Could you clarify? What, precisely is your objection there? Also, I'm not sure your dislike of post 99 makes any sense at all. The argument seems perfectly reasonable to me and I'm the slot it was attacking. Also, what do you think of your predecessor's reads, specifically ETL's reads on Cheeky and Ph0enix? Do you agree with them at all?

[Pine]

I'm here, I've just been busy studying for my one final exam (in a couple of hours) and tackling new responsibilities.

Should go back to normal this evening, will prioritize this Newbie game

[Mitillos]

@Mod: Given the numerous recent replacements and the various rl obligations, would it be possible to extend D1, if the rest of the players agree?

[PenguinPower]

@Penguin: Early on, you suggested that Ph0enix get an avatar. Is there a reason you didn't make the same suggestion to Arthur? Also, could you please try to avoid making multiple sequential posts and just collect everything into one post? You have nine posts in a row once and five posts in a row twice.

Ph0enix was the first newbie that posted without an avatar. I wasn't around when arthur entered, but my message had already been delivered at that point so I don't see why I would repeat it.

In regard to my posting style, that is unlikely to change. I don't like reading or making long posts, plus I find it is easier to reference specific points later on.

Both of these points seem really nitpicky.

[Mitillos]

They are certainly nitpicky and not really to do with the game. The first one was just curiosity, the second one is because my preferences are opposite of yours.

[Ph0enix]

@Penguin: Early on, you suggested that Ph0enix get an avatar. Is there a reason you didn't make the same suggestion to Arthur? Also, could you please try to avoid making multiple sequential posts and just collect everything into one post? You have nine posts in a row once and five posts in a row twice.

Both of these points seem really nitpicky.

Have to agree with PP on this one.

[Plotinus]

@Mod: Given the numerous recent replacements and the various rl obligations, would it be possible to extend D1, if the rest of the players agree?

I think 3.5 days is enough time for a game of this length. My usual policy is that I'll freeze the deadline at 48 hours if a slot is empty, but everyone's here right now.

[Ph0enix]

@Penguin: Early on, you suggested that Ph0enix get an avatar. Is there a reason you didn't make the same suggestion to Arthur? Also, could you please try to avoid making multiple sequential posts and just collect everything into one post? You have nine posts in a row once and five posts in a row twice.

Both of these points seem really nitpicky.

Have to agree with PP on this one.

Didn't see your post below, I thought you were using that as evidence against him. Fair enough then.

[Mitillos]

Nah, I'm still townreading Penguin.

[Farren]

What about these games made PenguinPower seem towny to you in the first two pages of the game?

My sense of reading 898 was: confrontational, with a decent-sized dose of snark.

That meshes with posts 16, 31, and 34 here.

Contrast to Alisae v Pine. Less pushy attitude. "Under-the-radar" isn't quite accurate - he was GIFfing up a storm at one point - but less impact.

And thanks for pulling up the ISO. Saved me from having to go back and do it myself.

Response here might be a bit biased, because I actually liked Gyro on this page (as well as Pheonix, they both seemed genuine and direct), but the argument against Gyro here seems forced and fake.

This sounds like a tonal complaint. What about the argument do you disagree with, if anything?

I forget what the rule is called, but it should be noted that Farren calls three players scum and Arthur is in the middle in 137 while I am conveniently scum reading them both.

No. This is false. I did not call anybody scum in post 137.

I summarized the wagon against your slot for chazary - in doing so, I listed the three votes made on your slot in chronological order.
I expressed interest in wanting to hear more from ETL - at that time she'd only posted once - and said that I could think of both town reasons and scum reasons for her actions.
I said that I would be shocked if either of the following were true: ETL was scum AND her scumbuddy was voting for her; OR ETL was Town and everyone voting for her was also Town.

How do you get to "Farren calls three players scum" from that?

Looking at the rest of your post: it's a shame you left off at page 8. I'll be interested to see what you make of Cheeky's response to ETL on page 10.

There's a lack of narrative cohesion to your post - which is not a bad thing, especially if you're doing a genuine timewarp. I don't see any signs of this not being a genuine timewarp. So that looks good.
Seeing multiple tonal references, which could just mean you're more of a tonal player than anything. If so, then the tonal take I referenced above could just be a playstyle thing and not a "trying-to-discredit-me" type of thing.
I can see both Town and scum motives in coming after me.

Town: no one's pressured me yet, so on general principles applying some pressure to me is a good thing. I am the precise opposite of a stream-of-thought player. I think things over carefully. I weigh everything. It gets multiplied by a large number when I'm scum, granted, but it's still present as Town and some players are sensitive to that. So I can buy that you have a bad tonal read on me - just like I could buy ETL's opposite tonal read, as she's played with me and seen my scumgame. If that's the case, this is taking a scumread and trying to pressure and/or develop it. Ergo, Town.

Scum: your slot is in danger. Up until ETL replaced out, I'd have put decent odds that she was going to be the D1 lynch - unless something major happened to shake things up. Going for a pre-existing wagon could easily be seen as scummy - trying to trigger a counterwagon to evade the lynch yourself. So you'd need to shift attention without making it look like you're getting desperate and going for the easiest counterwagon.

Caveat - if it's a genuine timewarp, you wouldn't know what the easiest counterwagon is. But if you're scum, I'd be willing to bet it's not 100% genuine.

Again, though, no signs of that yet. Hm.

Bottom line: I see lots of Town potential, but that misrepresentation of 137 is a huge minus - and one I cannot see a motive for Town to make. So if you respond to nothing else, please respond to that.

[Plotinus]

Prodging

- A naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. To avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; xxxx is still scum."

I have PMed Pine to remind him of this rule.

Prod timers in the newbie queue are shorter than elsewhere so you may need to mark yourselves V/LA for shorter periods than you would in other queues. I'm going to bed now though so any necessary prod stuff will happen in the morning.

[CheekyTeeky]

VOTE: Penguin Power

[PenguinPower]

Hi, Cheeky.