Guns & Roses III [Game over]

[Something_Smart]

Smart can also vouch from Team Mafia (probably my most tryhard scum game in the past year or so) that when I am heavily considered to be likely scum by town I still don't get defensive the way I do when I'm pushed or shaded as town.

Yeah it's foggy but I defo remember you being very chill that game.

[Menalque]

quick hot takes:
1) I like Menalque's argument about lynching off wagon, I doubt all three scum were on the wagon.
1a) however what if Menalque is scum I'm not sold on him being town yet
2) DoLittle's reads aren't bad
3) I don't love Datisi's Aaron push, in fact I kinda hate it

I'm about here I think:
Town club: {alimdia, Aaron, Iconeum, Smart}
conditional members: {Menalque, Amrun}
lynchpool?: {DoLittle, texcat, Datisi, DogWatch}

however I don't think it's likely that all three scum are in that lynchpool block either so there are some knots in my game state view I need to work out

if we want to lynch off wagon then texcat is my current choice. I agree with Amrun's assessment in 1589

like this is me literally trying to work with you, and instead you shade me, and then say

I'm

the one not working with you?

You’ve literally been shading me since here and I’m p sure I remember you shading me D1 as well I’ll try to go find it tomorrow

And then when I do actually try to work with you (following up on dogwstch after you asked people to) you ignore it and then get overly defensive when I push you for going after a lurker lynch AGAIN

[Menalque]

And frankly, I don’t think you have actually done that much today because you’ve been so focussed on DW

If we lynch DW and she flips scum then okay you’re probably town but if not then you’re pushing 2 lurker lynches in a row wtf am I supposed to think of that

[Menalque]

There is a point about you being more relaxed as scum and I’ll think about that incl as I read your ISO tomorrow, but on the other hand you literally just lost as scum with me so why would I expect you to play the same way as opposed to playing more intensely

[Menalque]

Menalque your GL case is primarily projecting what you expect a townie ought to think onto him.

Go on

[Menalque]

like, I actually think my point about Menal just seeing me as scum in Nomination Mafia is really strong here. I'm not over defensive as scum, I worry so much about being perceived as over-defensive that instead I act super chill and cool with my own lynch all the time. I was playing Nomination accounting for my own Lynch to contribute to POE solves.

Whereas as town I'm far more picky about people scumreading/voting me and I dive headfirst into battles all the time, which I avoided as much as possible in Nomination, other than 1v1ing with pisskop a little bit. Me reacting to being shaded in a one-liner is not scum!indicative from me at all, especially given Menal's direct and immediate experience with how I play as both scum and town.

And I mean again, very explicitly:

You’re aware of your scum meta which means you can manipulate it

You just lost a game playing to that scum meta

I just played a game with you where you were in that scum meta

What possible incentive is there for you to not intentionally manipulate your meta this game as scum?

[GuiltyLion]

You’ve literally been shading me since here and I’m p sure I remember you shading me D1 as well I’ll try to go find it tomorrow

And then when I do actually try to work with you (following up on dogwstch after you asked people to) you ignore it and then get overly defensive when I push you for going after a lurker lynch AGAIN

alright I'll grant that first post was kinda shade-y, I was mostly thinking I didn't know if I could trust you pushing anyone off-wagon solely on the basis of them being off-wagon since you were

also

off-wagon and best odds of a deep wolf of the people off.

Let's try this then: who do you actually want to Lynch of the off-wagon pool? Do you really think you not dying means DDL is town? I missed if you ever responded to Datisi's point about how Pretentious was 50% of that DDL wagon and died.

I also have more reasons to push Dogwatch than just lurking - namely her entire progression on me/Creature wagons. That's not a lurker Lynch, that's a "you acted really weird around your Creature scumread" Lynch. Like the main reason I haven't switched to texcat is because I feel texcat's lack of content/posting means higher odds of being wrong about something indicative in their ISO.

And frankly, I don’t think you have actually done that much today because you’ve been so focussed on DW

If we lynch DW and she flips scum then okay you’re probably town but if not then you’re pushing 2 lurker lynches in a row wtf am I supposed to think of that

I've commented on pretty much every relevant thread of D2 and interacted with a whoooole lotta slots outside of DW. I've been asking people to vote and do things to give me more to engage with. I think it's almost objective that I've done more today than 50% of the player base and it's almost absurd to me that you could read everything since D2 start and think I'm most likely scum coasting in this game state. This whole exchange started when I was expressing dissatisfaction with my reads and then you also expressed dissatisfaction with my reads, like that should signal to you that I am town if I have the same frustrations with my reads that you do??

[GuiltyLion]

like, I actually think my point about Menal just seeing me as scum in Nomination Mafia is really strong here. I'm not over defensive as scum, I worry so much about being perceived as over-defensive that instead I act super chill and cool with my own lynch all the time. I was playing Nomination accounting for my own Lynch to contribute to POE solves.

Whereas as town I'm far more picky about people scumreading/voting me and I dive headfirst into battles all the time, which I avoided as much as possible in Nomination, other than 1v1ing with pisskop a little bit. Me reacting to being shaded in a one-liner is not scum!indicative from me at all, especially given Menal's direct and immediate experience with how I play as both scum and town.

And I mean again, very explicitly:

You’re aware of your scum meta which means you can manipulate it

You just lost a game playing to that scum meta

I just played a game with you where you were in that scum meta

What possible incentive is there for you to not intentionally manipulate your meta this game as scum?

which is more likely though:
1) that I'm town and being defensive because that's how I play as town
2) I'm scum with a history of trying not to be defensive, and rolled scum again in this particular game, and decided to instead act as defensive as I can just so I can make this exact point when you specifically call me out on it?

use the razor, man.

[GuiltyLion]

also I've just straight up put in far more content here, especially at end of day 1, and already exceeded my post count from Nomination which was almost triple the length of this game. I hate to metaclear myself this way because it makes all my future scum games harder but like based on pure activity and engagement alone you should see a marked difference in my style here

[Menalque]

I think I want to lynch ddl the most out of offwagon

What makes me a better deepwolf than SS?

Idk I don’t remember the datisi point

Right and I’m waiting on answers from DW to sort there myself but why are you calling for more votes/pushing harder when the problem is the exact same thing of the person just not being around

I dislike the amrun tex push for the same reason, namely lynching no/low content slots is lynching slots that it’s hard to have an accurate read on and for that matter makes it hard to read in the later game esp if the person who dictated those lynches is still alive and has killed off sceptics. Like I think that’s a solid scum strategy and it’s why I think lurker hunting is bad vs hunting in the active players

There is a difference between saying that YOU are coasting scum, and saying that scum is costing — you can be engaging and managing so long as you’re pushing in a direction unlikely to meet resistance which then let’s your partners coast to avoid drawing attention to themselves, and, as mentioned, I think that if the lynch was trending towards scum it would have been more strongly resisted rather than apathied towards a DW/tex lynch

[Menalque]

So no, I don’t think you’re scum coasting but I think you could be scum managing the gamestate therefore allowing the scumteam to coast

The frustration thing is actually a good point tho

[Menalque]

But like if you’re frustrated I don’t understand why you’re angling towards two slots who just aren’t here and therefore by definition aren’t going to produce any more content rather than aiming at people who are here and who are sortable if you’re dissatisfied with your reads

[GuiltyLion]

alright I gotta run for now but I have been considering another go at the DDL wagon because I haven't liked his D2 play at all - most recently the way he asked me about my comment on his reads while also claiming to townread me was kinda jank - and I think regardless of your alignment he would make sense as scum, so maybe we can come together on that one, but I'll be out for the rest of today most likely so gonna leave it at that for now, in any case I appreciate you engaging with me more directly as it feels productive

[Menalque]

Why do you think lurkslots have > avg scum equity?

[Menalque]

VOTE: ddl okay let’s do this then

[Menalque]

Like my objection to you trying to metaclear yourself is that self aware scum is very able to intentionally break their range a number of times to increase the odds of winning and I don’t see why it’s unlikely that you wouldn’t /try/ to do that because otherwise you’re sandbagging your scumplay for the benefit of your townplay

[Menalque]

But yeah I need to sleep but my bigger concern is less to do with any of that and more to do with your approach on what I think are slots with very low content instead of trying to read people with more AI shit in their ISOs

[Something_Smart]

Go on

A lot of the stuff in 1608 seems to be stuff you don't like or don't understand, and you don't see why he'd do it as town, but you don't really ask why he'd do it as scum, and instead you just assume that if it doesn't make sense as town it must be scummy rather than just not making sense at all.

[Something_Smart]

So no, I don’t think you’re scum coasting but I think you could be scum managing the gamestate therefore allowing the scumteam to coast

In my experience this is not GL's MO as scum.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like the word "shading," it's imprecise and charged. I would prefer that people describe exactly what the effect of the referenced behavior is.

[AaronFrost]

Like I'm not doubting that Amrun is a strong player or anything, but the case 'she isn't playing to her meta, must be scum' is shallow and surface level.

No you are right AF. Shes not playing to her meta. I should town read her

I'm not saying that you have to TR her, I'm saying that if you are SRing her, then you should attempt to make a case on her that isn't meta.

[FakeGod]

texcat has asked for replacement.

[AaronFrost]

I really don’t like that we went for a lucky slot yesterday and it flipped town and despite that you wanna follow the exact same strategy again today @GL

I'm also a bit hesitant to go for texcat because I finished a game with her not to long ago where she lurked a lot as town and I was able to push her as an easy mislynch as scum.

PEDIT: Well damn

[AaronFrost]

Still waiting on answers from Dogwatch

[Amrun]

@S_S: I know you weren’t. The bolded is what pinged me.

Go on... what makes scum-S_S decide to imply that Iconeum is town?

That’s not what a perspective slip is. It isn’t done on purpose.

It came right after your town read on him, so presumably, you were speaking from a place of Iconeum being town because that was your town read, but the wording bothered me.

It’s not something I’d lynch you for alone, but it does mean there’s no planet in which you and Iconeum are scum buddies.