Newbie 1973 | Mountain | Over

[PenguinPower]

That’s why you claim when there is intent, and Enter should have known better.

I hope that my friend Pine, a tree so evergreen and of such irreproachability, will be able to join us today.

Seriously purple, get to playing mafia.

[PenguinPower]

Pagetop plus post 500.

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.01

Mount Fuji, Honshu Island, Japan

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

ArthurConyal

(1): Ph0enix

Not Voting

(6): ArthurConyl, chazary, Farren, Mitillos, PenguinPower, Pine

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-12-29 19:55:00).

Mod notes:

If any of you are into recreational mathematics, I need a replacement for my Sequencer game. It is much less of a commitment than a mafia game, you only have to post a couple times a week.[/area]

[Farren]

VOTE: Pine

So far, all I've seen from you is that you thought ETL was Town and you didn't like PP, but maybe you were wrong about at least one of those two things. (In retrospect, obviously right about ETL.)

Out of your four posts, three of them have implied that your participation would increase.

Please come join us.

[Farren]

Arthur: what I'd like to see from you right now is similar to what Mitillos did on his entry (183, 197)

What are your current thoughts on everyone?

What's changed (if anything) on seeing Enter flip Town?

[Farren]

Penguin: you tailed off at the end of D1. On reading your ISO, most of your reads - at least the ones you mentioned - happened in the first half of D1. The second half of D1 - other than your vote for ETL, you're present, answering questions, but ... where's the scumhunting?

[Plotinus]

Probably some of you are going to be travelling for the holidays. Tuesday-Thursday of this week and next week, we'll use weekend time.

Spoiler: I optimise my life to maximise the amount of mental arithmetic I have to do and weekend time is no exception

, but roughly what this means is that I look at when you would've been prodded under normal rules, and then without loss of generality suppose that, in my timezone (GMT+1), you would have been prodded 8 hours into the start of the weekend. I double those 8 hours and prod you 4pm instead.

So if you don't want to be prodded on Christmas, try to post late Monday, that should keep you until Thursday sometime.

[ArthurConyl]

@Ph0enix, in response to your Post #499: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11459965

Quoting the main points to address:

Spoiler:

"Also, you actually still haven't answered the question why you thought Chazary was suspicious in the first place. Although there's a slight contradiction here:

Post #257: "Also to explain why I voted for Chazary, I initally was voting for ETL but I saw we weren't getting anywhere, so I switched to Chazary. I wasn't trying to lynch anyone, I just switched so there'd be a better chance of getting a read out of someone."

Post #334: "I unvoted because I read your posts after my vote and I thought they were leaning towards town. If you (Chazary) read my voting post I stated that we weren't getting anywhere with ETL and I voted for you because I found you the most suspicious other than ETL."

So in the first post, you said that you weren't trying to lynch anyone and just trying to get a read out of Chazary. Fair enough. But then comes the second post, where you say that you find him suspicious. Do you find him suspicious or not? If so, why?"

Alright, so you said there was a contradiction between my posts and asked me whether I find Chazary suspicious or not. My posts don't contradict - I felt that Chazary was the most suspicious other than ETL. We weren't getting anything out of ETL, so I switched to try to get a read out of Chazary. I was not jumping on the wagon to lynch him. I only put him at L-2. Afterward my vote, his posts seemed leaning more towards town and everyone was scumreading me for voting him, so I unvoted.

Currently, my opinion of Chazary is more in the middle. Obviously, I still don't trust him to be town, but I wouldn't say I want to lynch him for being scummy. Probably because he acted strangely before my vote, but his posts have seemed more townie since then.

I'll quote the relevant posts below:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440336
Alright so he doesn't start posting until ages after the start. Post #106. He votes for me "to make everyone feels wanted." Not exactly scummy, but weird. Also his late start may suggest lurking. Then Gyro asks him why he voted for me. Then:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440524
He changes vote to Penguin. If he did this to "to make everyone feels wanted," why didn't he just unvote? He also seems concerned about it being "such a controversial choice." Then when Penguin reminds him we're out of RVS, he unvotes next post. Not scummy, just a bit weird.

As Mitillos puts it:

chazary: What's wrong with controversial choices? Especially if you're trying to see how people will react to being voted (i.e. creating pressure). Also, how is an almost-naked vote on Arthur controversial, but a completely unexplained one on Penguin not? Why would you expect anyone (particularly an SE, who has probably played enough games to have been voted quite a bit) to react to one vote? Generally seems wishy-washy on many things, which can potentially be indicative of newbscum not knowing where and how to target effectively, dipping a toe here and there to see where it's safe to go.

So the second point to address:

Spoiler:

But even if I let that slide, which I won't, obviously, there's still more to it:

CheekyTeeky wrote:

In post 472, Farren wrote:
It is understandable that a new player would feel uncomfortable about being felt scummy. Problem is, it's also understandable that scum would feel uncomfortable about being felt scummy - even more so.

Being new and concerned about how you look doesn't vibe with:

In post 456, ArthurConyl wrote:
@Enter a good time to claim would be now, someone (including me)'s going to hammer you otherwise

So Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
That reads to me like he didn't want confrontations but is comfortable sheeping the majority. This gives him no accountability for a flip because he's voting with consensus. If he was really a nervous unsure newbie I doubt he'd even think about hammering if he can't stomach voting. His actions and posturing don't add up.

Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself.

ArthurConyl wrote:
@Cheeky, the same goes for your post. I put Chazary at L-2 with my vote and people immediately started scumreading me. As a result I'm not inclined to vote for someone quickly.
I see that Farren has unvoted. Its fairly close to the deadline so I better put Enter back at L-1. I can't really hold back from voting and give Enter more time at this stage. VOTE: Enter

Yeah, we started scumreading you because the vote was unfounded, not because of the vote itself.
And then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?

Alright, so you make the following points:
1) Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
In this case, nearly everyone (including me) find Enter/ETL scummy and want to lynch him. People scumread me after I voted on suspicion for Chazary, but I'm not worried about people scumreading me for hammering someone who actively looked scummy. Because no sensible player scumreads someone for that.
2) Then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?
Did I not state (if you'd reread properly) that I was hesitant about voting after what happened with Chazary? That's why I didn't join the wagon (until the end). Then Farren unvoted, stating an intention to hammer if Enter was put at L-1. I wanted Enter lynched, I felt he was scummy. So I joined the wagon so that Farren could hammer him.

[Ph0enix]

Alright, so you said there was a contradiction between my posts and asked me whether I find Chazary suspicious or not. My posts don't contradict - I felt that Chazary was the most suspicious other than ETL. We weren't getting anything out of ETL, so I switched to try to get a read out of Chazary. I was not jumping on the wagon to lynch him. I only put him at L-2. Afterward my vote, his posts seemed leaning more towards town and everyone was scumreading me for voting him, so I unvoted.

Currently, my opinion of Chazary is more in the middle. Obviously, I still don't trust him to be town, but I wouldn't say I want to lynch him for being scummy. Probably because he acted strangely before my vote, but his posts have seemed more townie since then.

I'll quote the relevant posts below:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440336
Alright so he doesn't start posting until ages after the start. Post #106. He votes for me "to make everyone feels wanted." Not exactly scummy, but weird. Also his late start may suggest lurking. Then Gyro asks him why he voted for me. Then:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440524
He changes vote to Penguin. If he did this to "to make everyone feels wanted," why didn't he just unvote? He also seems concerned about it being "such a controversial choice." Then when Penguin reminds him we're out of RVS, he unvotes next post. Not scummy, just a bit weird.

As Mitillos puts it:

chazary: What's wrong with controversial choices? Especially if you're trying to see how people will react to being voted (i.e. creating pressure). Also, how is an almost-naked vote on Arthur controversial, but a completely unexplained one on Penguin not? Why would you expect anyone (particularly an SE, who has probably played enough games to have been voted quite a bit) to react to one vote? Generally seems wishy-washy on many things, which can potentially be indicative of newbscum not knowing where and how to target effectively, dipping a toe here and there to see where it's safe to go.

I could give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, although I still don't know why you didn't explain it earlier, it would've been much easier for all of us.

Alright, so you make the following points:
1) Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
In this case, nearly everyone (including me) find Enter/ETL scummy and want to lynch him. People scumread me after I voted on suspicion for Chazary, but I'm not worried about people scumreading me for hammering someone who actively looked scummy. Because no sensible player scumreads someone for that.
2) Then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?
Did I not state (if you'd reread properly) that I was hesitant about voting after what happened with Chazary? That's why I didn't join the wagon (until the end). Then Farren unvoted, stating an intention to hammer if Enter was put at L-1. I wanted Enter lynched, I felt he was scummy. So I joined the wagon so that Farren could hammer him.

So, in 2), you say that you

were

hesistant about voting. However, in 1) you say that you have no problem with voting someone who looks scummy in the eyes of the majority of people. Sooo, you only want to make safe votes? Not a great idea, imo. Cause that was a safe vote at this point, you said it yourself.

Also, "People scumread me after I voted on suspicion for Chazary, but I'm not worried about people scumreading me for hammering someone who actively looked scummy."

From the way you said it, it looks like Enter actively looked scummy, unlike Chazary. So Chazary didn't look scummy after all? If he didn't, you are contradicting yourself, if he did look scummy, given your statement, why would you be worried about people scumreading you in case you have solid statements to support your suspicion of him? I don't see "I don't want to look scummy" as an excuse. As Cheeky stated, people are going to jump on you regardless of what you do, might as well be rational about it, at least their concerns about you will be unfounded in that case, unlike the situation we are in now, ironically, because you did not want to look scummy.

Also, yeah, what's up with Pine? :/

Penguin: you tailed off at the end of D1. On reading your ISO, most of your reads - at least the ones you mentioned - happened in the first half of D1. The second half of D1 - other than your vote for ETL, you're present, answering questions, but ... where's the scumhunting?

Have to agree with Farren on that one. Do you have any reads, what's your take on the current situation?

[ArthurConyl]

Arthur: what I'd like to see from you right now is similar to what Mitillos did on his entry (183, 197)

What are your current thoughts on everyone?

What's changed (if anything) on seeing Enter flip Town?

Current reads on everyone:

Ph0enix - Town

Fairly solid, scumhunting and actively participating.

chazary - in the middle

Acted weirdly at the start, fairly solid participation since then.
Farren

Mitillos - Leaning Town

Mitillos' posts have been pretty townie, scumhunting and probing. Problem is Gyro, who he replaced, acted weirdly at the start of D1.

PenguinPower - Town

Started D1 well, seemed fairly townie. He did seem to be less active later on though?

Pine - ???

Inactive, cannot tell.

[ArthurConyl]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

[ArthurConyl]

Sorry, looks like I missed Farren in my previous post.

Farren - Town

I think Farren's behaviour up to now has been fairly townie, with the exception of when he pulled a naked vote on me. That's probably the only scummy blemish on his otherwise townie record.

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

I don't know, it may be just me at this point, but this statement still fails to convince me. I would love to her the others' opinions on this.

Also, I genuinely thought Pine wasn't posting because he was busy. But I saw he has been active on other threads, so he's simply choosing to ignore this one. Pine, you can't survive until D2 without contributing anything and expect people to not suspect you.

FoS Pine

[Mitillos]

@Arthur: If everyone else is towny, that leaves you as mafia, you know.

Penguin's case on Arthur is very compelling. I would also like Pine's reads at this time, before I start voting, though. In the meantime, I'm going to reread Arthur's ISO.

[PenguinPower]

Penguin: you tailed off at the end of D1. On reading your ISO, most of your reads - at least the ones you mentioned - happened in the first half of D1. The second half of D1 - other than your vote for ETL, you're present, answering questions, but ... where's the scumhunting?

Most of that is due to the game state at the time:

I scum read ETL/Enter and was allowing for people to interact without interruption (except where I just had to interject some snark) to help with associatives post-flip. He was also creating a lot of noise, and I have to say it made me overconfident, especially with his "This is my last post because work...oh wait, I'm back an hour later."

[PenguinPower]

Have to agree with Farren on that one. Do you have any reads, what's your take on the current situation?

I want Pine to show up. Currently, my bottom two reads are Arthur and chazary.

[PenguinPower]

Penguin's case on Arthur is very compelling.

Ph0enix's case.

[Mitillos]

Sorry, yes, messed up my ornithology there. :Þ

[Farren]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

I don't know, it may be just me at this point, but this statement still fails to convince me. I would love to her the others' opinions on this.

I think Arthur is telling the truth. Arthur's made his priorities pretty clear here - he doesn't want to be scumread.

The problem is that this is one of those cases where scum|Arthur can tell the truth just as easily as Town|Arthur.

For scum, not being scumread is an adequate goal in and of itself. If one scum escapes being lynched the entire game, scum win. Simplistic, but accurate enough for our purposes.
For Town, not being scumread is only part of the picture. Town cannot settle for merely not being scumread. Town has to find the scum and lynch them.

So seeing any player concentrate overwhelmingly on the first at the expense of the second is going to make me wonder if the reason why they're doing that is because they are scum.

[Farren]

Arthur: you didn't answer part of my question - specifically, did anything change for you on seeing Enter flip Town? Reads in particular, but if anything else did, that's fair game too. If so, what and why?

[Farren]

I want Pine to show up. Currently, my bottom two reads are Arthur and chazary.

Think we can all agree on wanting Pine to show up.

What's changed on chazary since 353?

[chazary]

I'll quote the relevant posts below:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440336
Alright so he doesn't start posting until ages after the start. Post #106. He votes for me "to make everyone feels wanted." Not exactly scummy, but weird. Also his late start may suggest lurking. Then Gyro asks him why he voted for me. Then:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440524
He changes vote to Penguin. If he did this to "to make everyone feels wanted," why didn't he just unvote? He also seems concerned about it being "such a controversial choice." Then when Penguin reminds him we're out of RVS, he unvotes next post. Not scummy, just a bit weird.

As Mitillos puts it:

chazary: What's wrong with controversial choices? Especially if you're trying to see how people will react to being voted (i.e. creating pressure). Also, how is an almost-naked vote on Arthur controversial, but a completely unexplained one on Penguin not? Why would you expect anyone (particularly an SE, who has probably played enough games to have been voted quite a bit) to react to one vote? Generally seems wishy-washy on many things, which can potentially be indicative of newbscum not knowing where and how to target effectively, dipping a toe here and there to see where it's safe to go.

So the second point to address:

Spoiler:

But even if I let that slide, which I won't, obviously, there's still more to it:

CheekyTeeky wrote:

In post 472, Farren wrote:
It is understandable that a new player would feel uncomfortable about being felt scummy. Problem is, it's also understandable that scum would feel uncomfortable about being felt scummy - even more so.

Being new and concerned about how you look doesn't vibe with:

In post 456, ArthurConyl wrote:
@Enter a good time to claim would be now, someone (including me)'s going to hammer you otherwise

So Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
That reads to me like he didn't want confrontations but is comfortable sheeping the majority. This gives him no accountability for a flip because he's voting with consensus. If he was really a nervous unsure newbie I doubt he'd even think about hammering if he can't stomach voting. His actions and posturing don't add up.

Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself.

ArthurConyl wrote:
@Cheeky, the same goes for your post. I put Chazary at L-2 with my vote and people immediately started scumreading me. As a result I'm not inclined to vote for someone quickly.
I see that Farren has unvoted. Its fairly close to the deadline so I better put Enter back at L-1. I can't really hold back from voting and give Enter more time at this stage. VOTE: Enter

Yeah, we started scumreading you because the vote was unfounded, not because of the vote itself.
And then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?

Alright, so you make the following points:
1) Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
In this case, nearly everyone (including me) find Enter/ETL scummy and want to lynch him. People scumread me after I voted on suspicion for Chazary, but I'm not worried about people scumreading me for hammering someone who actively looked scummy. Because no sensible player scumreads someone for that.
2) Then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?
Did I not state (if you'd reread properly) that I was hesitant about voting after what happened with Chazary? That's why I didn't join the wagon (until the end). Then Farren unvoted, stating an intention to hammer if Enter was put at L-1. I wanted Enter lynched, I felt he was scummy. So I joined the wagon so that Farren could hammer him.

You really had to quote my typo that makes me sound like a quirky 14 year old? Thanks.

I don't understand the difference between my fear of a controversial vote back in RVS and your fear of one later in D1 when you voted for me. Other than that, I understand your intent to hammer. I don't think its strange to scumread for hammering, though. Clearly some did find it suspicious. You switched away from ETL to vote for me before and then switch back when you see a chance to finalize the lynch. Thats reasonable evidence towards being scummy.

I'll also add to this post that I am responding as I catch up. Poor Cheeky. I really thought if ETL/Enter wasn't scum that Cheeky would be. Now here we are. Gotta rethink my reads.

[chazary]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

I don't know, it may be just me at this point, but this statement still fails to convince me. I would love to her the others' opinions on this.

Also, I genuinely thought Pine wasn't posting because he was busy. But I saw he has been active on other threads, so he's simply choosing to ignore this one. Pine, you can't survive until D2 without contributing anything and expect people to not suspect you.

FoS Pine

I understand his reasoning. Not wanting to hop on the Enter wagon until there was promise that it would be a done deal if he did (Farren hammering upon L-1). I get it. But what I don't like is the repetitiveness of his responses. We're asking for more of an answer (still don't understand his change of opinion on my RVS votes) and he's giving us the same one he has been. Maybe because that's all there is to it. Maybe because the real reason is something he doesn't want to admit.

[chazary]

I'm also still really liking Phoenix's posts. I don't know if its just a change of pace having a player not vote left and right for whoever is suspicious, but he's def at the top of my towns list still.

As for everyone else, let me go back and do some retrospective snooping. Arthur is my biggest scum read for now.

And like everyone else, until Pine starts posting more, they're getting thrown into the scumreads too. We got nothing from Normansky and now just as little from Pine. Can't help but think its scum being too nervous and then too overwhelmed to participate and try to shed suspicion.

[ArthurConyl]

Arthur: you didn't answer part of my question - specifically, did anything change for you on seeing Enter flip Town? Reads in particular, but if anything else did, that's fair game too. If so, what and why?

@Farren:
Considering the fact that Enter/ETL acted extremely scummy and that ETL ragequit, I don't think anyone who voted for him could be scumread. Other people who didn't vote for him cannot be scumread either, they may have believed Enter was town or were inactive. (Pine).

Basically Enter flipping has told me nothing scum or town indicative, because nearly everyone (me included) believed that Enter really was scum. A case could be made that people who didn't vote could be scummy because they didn't want to be part of the wagon, but it could be argued they believed he was innocent. In other words Enter's lynching has gained nothing.