Newbie 1973 | Mountain | Over

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.02

Mount Assiniboine, Canadian Rockies, Canada

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

Pine

(1): Farren

ArthurConyl

(1): Ph0enix

Not Voting

(5): PenguinPower, Pine, ArthurConyl, chazary, Mitillos

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-12-29 19:55:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

I don't know, it may be just me at this point, but this statement still fails to convince me. I would love to her the others' opinions on this.

I think Arthur is telling the truth. Arthur's made his priorities pretty clear here - he doesn't want to be scumread.

The problem is that this is one of those cases where scum|Arthur can tell the truth just as easily as Town|Arthur.

For scum, not being scumread is an adequate goal in and of itself. If one scum escapes being lynched the entire game, scum win. Simplistic, but accurate enough for our purposes.
For Town, not being scumread is only part of the picture. Town cannot settle for merely not being scumread. Town has to find the scum and lynch them.

So seeing any player concentrate overwhelmingly on the first at the expense of the second is going to make me wonder if the reason why they're doing that is because they are scum.

Good point.

Considering the fact that Enter/ETL acted extremely scummy and that ETL ragequit, I don't think anyone who voted for him could be scumread.

That's not how that works. Throwing out a vote for someone who is suspicious doesn't automatically make it a reasonable vote from the others' points of view.

Other people who didn't vote for him cannot be scumread either, they may have believed Enter was town or were inactive. (Pine).

Are you ignoring the fact that the sole reason Enter wasn't lynched earlier during D1 is because there was another wagon going on consisting of people that were voting you because you were the other suspicious person apart from Enter? I don't think there was a single person who didn't suspect Enter at least a little. Also, if Enter was so obviously suspicious, how could you not scumread people who didn't vote him, provided they "believed Enter is town"? At this point there should have been a damn good reason to not vote Enter because he provided all the evidence we need in order to conclude that he is suspicious. Of course, in our case, you were that other good reason. But in your hypothetical scenario you are willing to ignore the fact that some people didn't vote for the obviously suspicious player for no good reason at all. Questionable.

Lastly, the Pine situation is getting ridiculous. I'm starting to think that I should put the whole Arthur case on hold and vote him. But I'll give him a little bit more time.

[ArthurConyl]

@Ph0enix, you seem very certain that everyone thought Enter was scummy. The point I was making was that just because some people weren't on the wagon doesn't indicate their alignment in any way. Feel free to disagree though.

[Plotinus]

Pine³ has been prodded. This is Pine's third prod, so I'm going to start looking for a replacement now. If he posts before I find someone, he can stay.

[Plotinus]

Aloratom replaces Pine! Please welcome them!

[Mitillos]

Welcome, new person.

[Aloratom]

Hello.

Couple of initial thoughts:

Farren boxed out aggressive then backed off a bit. May be fishing, but seems calculated. In 346 Farren asks for pressure. It's a little too-blatant. His thoughts overall have been helpful, however. Leaning scum.

Arthur hasn't an avatar, which is weird because someone dinged Phoenix early on. And his posting has been light. Like he's really trying to slide under the radar. Also reads Phoenix as Town in 509, but votes Phoenix. Leaning Scum here.

Mitillos comes off as town from what I've seen, but what I've seen is little. His initial reads are well thought out, but I'm not certain. Leaning town.

[Aloratom]

We've got about two and a half days to go. Arthur, it's time to vote. Everyone else, time to think about consolidating. We do

not

want to wait until the last minute to get someone up to L-1. We do not want any hammers without intent and time to claim.

Will not lynch: Cheeky, Mitillos
Would prefer not to lynch, but will if there's no better alternative: chazary, Ph0enix
Squarely in the middle: Penguin
Would be okay with lynching: Arthur, Pine
Actively want to lynch: Enter

Penguin and Arthur are loose fits in their categories. Arthur's getting close to middle; Penguin's been trending downwards.

Pine is PoE at this point.

Why Pine/me? Because inactive?

[Farren]

UNVOTE: Pine / Aloratom

And congratulations - you've arguably contributed more to your slot than the other *three* bodies that occupied it over the course of D1.

Re: 531 -
I wouldn't describe myself as asking for pressure there - I was pointing out that Enter was pressuring me, and that pressuring a player that hadn't seen any pressure yet was a plus. I can at least see how someone could interpret it that way, though.
I see Arthur's townread in 509, but where does Arthur vote for Ph0enix? He does describe Ph0enix with a "?" back in 161, and mentions that he suspects Ph0enix in 256, but that's all I see.

Re: 532 - It's a mixture of process of elimination and Pine's active inactivity. I have Townreads on Mitillos, Ph0enix, and chazary. That leaves you, Penguin, and Arthur.

Looking forward to your take on the rest of the game.

[Aloratom]

I don't know where Arthur voted Phoenix, but in 525, it's documented.

[Farren]

I don't know where Arthur voted Phoenix, but in 525, it's documented.

That's Ph0enix voting for Arthur.

[PenguinPower]

I want Pine to show up. Currently, my bottom two reads are Arthur and chazary.

Think we can all agree on wanting Pine to show up.

What's changed on chazary since 353?

353 wasn’t indicating a townread on chazary, just that his wagon was not something I was interested I pursuing over ETL.

His hesitancy over hammering Enter despite a stated scum read reads bad - especially given that you had obvious intent to hammer when you returned. His entrance today also pinged me - “Poor Cheeky”

Spoiler:

Battle of the bandwagons eh? Well my original vote was on ETL way back. Now Enter has done nothing to convince me of their innocence since then.

My vote on Arthur was a press to answer my question which he still has not done. Because of this, I am indifferent to lynching him. If the wagon pulls through I won't be mad. If not, I'd rather see Enter lynched than no one at all.

Intent to hammer Enter in

i dont know a proper amount of time to do this

~8 hours

? I honestly don't really know when I'll be back before deadline to do this. But I will be eventually.

If Pine doesn't vote in time or no one from Enter's wagon swaps and hammers Arthur, then I'll switch my vote.

You really had to quote my typo that makes me sound like a quirky 14 year old? Thanks.

I don't understand the difference between my fear of a controversial vote back in RVS and your fear of one later in D1 when you voted for me. Other than that, I understand your intent to hammer. I don't think its strange to scumread for hammering, though. Clearly some did find it suspicious. You switched away from ETL to vote for me before and then switch back when you see a chance to finalize the lynch. Thats reasonable evidence towards being scummy.

I'll also add to this post that I am responding as I catch up. Poor Cheeky. I really thought if ETL/Enter wasn't scum that Cheeky would be. Now here we are. Gotta rethink my reads.

[PenguinPower]

Back late tomorrow or Thursday.

Welcome newpine.

[ArthurConyl]

@chazary:

I don't understand the difference between my fear of a controversial vote back in RVS and your fear of one later in D1 when you voted for me. Other than that, I understand your intent to hammer. I don't think its strange to scumread for hammering, though. Clearly some did find it suspicious. You switched away from ETL to vote for me before and then switch back when you see a chance to finalize the lynch. Thats reasonable evidence towards being scummy.

There is not much difference between our votes, except your vote was a random one and mine was not.
You stated that you didn't think it was strange to scumread for hammering. No one has yet stated that because I joined the wagon, they find me scummy.
I switched away from ETL to you for reasons I've already explained (go reread, I'm not bothered to explain again) and unvoted, also because of reasons I've stated. Then, yes I voted for Enter to finalise the lynch because I believed he was scummy. What part of that do you not understand? Are you saying that everyone who was on the Enter wagon is under suspicion of being scum?

To everyone else: I'm not bothered to re-explain things I've already said. If you're going to post some dumb ass post like this one, actually go back and reread. You're legitimately wasting your time posting like this. It comes down to the fact that I've done things I've explained, and you can think it scummy or not. Nothing I say can change your opinion. Nothing you can say can change your opinion. Stop wasting my time as well, unless you have something new to say.

[ArthurConyl]

Arthur hasn't an avatar, which is weird because someone dinged Phoenix early on. And his posting has been light. Like he's really trying to slide under the radar. Also reads Phoenix as Town in 509, but votes Phoenix. Leaning Scum here.

I'll agree that my posting has been light, but I'm not trying to slide under the radar. It's probably just the way I play, I don't post a lot like other people. Even if I was scum, I'd also be posting this much. Mainly just reading other posts and forming conclusions.
Also I've never voted for Ph0enix. I thought he acted a bit weird at the start but comes off as town since then.

[Mitillos]

When I joined this game, I said that I was putting Arthur on the townreads, provisionally. The provision was that if he really is town, one would expect to see some actual scumhunting from him. All I have seen from Arthur up to now is just defense. He generally just argues with people who are scumreading him and doesn't seem to be interested in looking for mafia at all. His post 509 names all but two players (chaz and Pine) as town or leaning town, yet he doesn't bother voting either of those two remaining, despite the fact that there are exactly two mafia players. As I mentioned before, Ph0enix's case is compelling.

VOTE: ArthurConyl

Note: I also think that Penguin has been coasting and active-lurking. His towniness has been reduced in my eyes.

[Ph0enix]

No one has yet stated that because I joined the wagon, they find me scummy.

... Cheeky did. I did. Given the fact that you are the one who has recently started telling people as part of your defense to "go back and reread", it's pretty ironic that you missed that. I mean, technically Cheeky's suspicion of you had more to do with your intent to vote than the vote itself, but it still counts.

To everyone else: I'm not bothered to re-explain things I've already said. If you're going to post some dumb ass post like this one, actually go back and reread. You're legitimately wasting your time posting like this. It comes down to the fact that I've done things I've explained, and you can think it scummy or not. Nothing I say can change your opinion. Nothing you can say can change your opinion. Stop wasting my time as well, unless you have something new to say.

I really don't understand how anyone would believe such a response is helping them in any way.

To all who haven't voted Arthur: What's holding you back? Do you not suspect him at all? Are you giving him time to respond? Something else? It may seem pushy asking you that but I believe Arthur has given us all the evidence we need to suspect him.

@Chazary, Farren: What's your opinion on the current state of the game as a whole? Not that you are not participating actively or something, it's just that most of your recent posts have to do with Arthur (not that we have no reason to discuss Arthur, but still).

Also looking forward to hearing more from Aloratom and from PP as well when he gets back.

[Aloratom]

After ISO Chazary reads town to me. His explanation in 148is total town.

Farran's 137 is telling: "I'd be shocked if ETL *and* one of her voters were scum. I'd be similarly shocked if ETL is Town and *none* of her voters were scum." Especially after his vote for ETL, then unvote then re-vote after Arthur's vote for ETL. Both his and Arthur's votes for ETL are opportunistic. And his explanation for 346in 533 is a backpedal that doesn't jibe with what he wrote. Then in 245he pushes Ph0enix into voting for someone, anyone.

I still want to see more from Penguin and Ph0enix. I see no reason not to suss both.

[Farren]

To all who haven't voted Arthur: What's holding you back? Do you not suspect him at all? Are you giving him time to respond? Something else? It may seem pushy asking you that but I believe Arthur has given us all the evidence we need to suspect him.

@Chazary, Farren: What's your opinion on the current state of the game as a whole? Not that you are not participating actively or something, it's just that most of your recent posts have to do with Arthur (not that we have no reason to discuss Arthur, but still).

I acknowledge the gamestate question, but think it's going to take a while to respond to, so going to put it on the back burner for now. Brief version: everyone scumreads Arthur today to some extent. I'm questioning what that means overall - does it mesh better with a scum-Arthur world or a Town-Arthur world, given how D1 played out? And yes, that is still Arthur-centric, but he is currently the center of the gamestate.


Not voting for Arthur right now because I don't want the day to end this early, for a few different reasons. And yeah, my vote would just mean L-1, but that means anyone could end it whenever they wanted - including Arthur, if he's scum (or frustrated / angry Town, for that matter - yeah, it'd be stupid, but Town is not immune to being stupid. Scum would at least benefit from cutting off discussion.)

1) I want aloratom to have time to catch up and post more.
2) I want time for myself to go over D1 again. This ties into the gamestate question above.
3) I want time to see what everyone else does. I figure activity today will be light in general with Christmas.

[Farren]

After ISO Chazary reads town to me. His explanation in 148is total town.

Farran's 137 is telling: "I'd be shocked if ETL *and* one of her voters were scum. I'd be similarly shocked if ETL is Town and *none* of her voters were scum." Especially after his vote for ETL, then unvote then re-vote after Arthur's vote for ETL. Both his and Arthur's votes for ETL are opportunistic. And his explanation for 346in 533 is a backpedal that doesn't jibe with what he wrote. Then in 245he pushes Ph0enix into voting for someone, anyone.

I still want to see more from Penguin and Ph0enix. I see no reason not to suss both.

This is part of why I want to go back and re-read D1 - I want to take another look at how things built up, both with ETL and Enter.

I never voted for ETL. I voted for Gyro, Arthur, chazary, Enter, Arthur, Enter, in that order on D1. Yes, ETL and Enter were the same slot.

Confused about your issue with 346 vs 533. There's no backpedal there.

Agree with wanting to hear more from Penguin. I'm surprised you lump Ph0enix into that same category, though. During the first part of D1, sure, but he's been screaming Town for a while now. What about Ph0enix makes you suspect him?

[PenguinPower]

So here are my thoughts:

Arthur’s behavior is scummy in itself (defensiveness, lack of voting/pushing). He was the EOD counterwagon to ETL/Enter which would usually make me think scum, but Enter’s refusal time claim and general behavior lessens that. I also note that chazary and Arthur are scum reading each other but not voting there, so I’m wondering if this is distancing - chazary’s eod behavior around the wagons could support that. Would like for him to come back and explain his new reads.

Could you finish your thoughts on the rest of the player’s, Alora? I don’t think your recent reads were as well thought out as your initial entry.

[Ph0enix]

His explanation in 148 is total town.

How's that?

@Farren: Reasonable.

[Ph0enix]

Then in 245 he pushes Ph0enix into voting for someone, anyone.

I didn't interpret it that way, that's for sure. There's a fine line between questioning and pushing someone. I think in that case we're talking about the former, not the latter.

[Ph0enix]

So here are my thoughts:
I also note that chazary and Arthur are scum reading each other but not voting there, so I’m wondering if this is distancing - chazary’s eod behavior around the wagons could support that.

Good point. Although, even though Chazary scumreads Arthur, I'm not sure it goes both ways, currently. In his readslist he states that Chazary "Acted weirdly at the start, fairly solid participation since then."
Given his posts since then, it doesn't seem like his opinion of Chazary has changed in any way, so I'm not sure we can call that one a scumread as well, just saying.

[PenguinPower]

He has him as his lowest current read and his 538 comes across that way to me - maybe it’s just the insult buried in.