Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
Forum rules
User avatar
Dunnstral
Dunnstral
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Dunnstral
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 37035
Joined: April 2, 2016

Post Post #425 (ISO) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:06 am

Post by Dunnstral »

Note that in the case of an ascetic, they can still be targeted by abilities in a backup state, as their role does nothing. The key difference in the case of the doctor is that "investigate as having no gun" is
not
a passive property of the doctor.
It's a passive property of the gunsmith
, that they investigate doctors as having no gun. The backup role doing nothing does nothing to affect the gunsmith's result, because even though a backup doctor does nothing, it
is
a doctor with a modifier on it, and in normal games gunsmiths get no gun results on doctors.

A quick look at the Gunsmith role tells me that my interpretation is correct:
Normal Guidelines

In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops,
Backups of roles with guns
and JoATs that have any of these listed powers.
User avatar
gobbledygook
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7861
Joined: July 24, 2019

Post Post #426 (ISO) » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:43 pm

Post by gobbledygook »

I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #427 (ISO) » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:52 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 426, gobbledygook wrote:I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.
I don’t see why?

I mean, straight up mountainous is fun. For me at least.

I don’t think it should be used often. I just don’t know why it’s not an option.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Wake1
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8683
Joined: August 3, 2013

Post Post #428 (ISO) » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:55 pm

Post by Wake1 »

I think we need more flavor roles like Gunsmith.

Like how a role can check for guns across various roles, have another check for, say, specific clothing, etc.
"It's wise to be... cautious... with Wake."
— House*
"What Wake lacks in charisma, he makes up for it in pure analytic power."
— Nosferatu*
User avatar
gobbledygook
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7861
Joined: July 24, 2019

Post Post #429 (ISO) » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:09 pm

Post by gobbledygook »

In post 427, Amrun wrote:
In post 426, gobbledygook wrote:I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.
I don’t see why?

I mean, straight up mountainous is fun. For me at least.

I don’t think it should be used often. I just don’t know why it’s not an option.
For balancing purposes, it is like giving the mafia a vigilante kill. It removes a town power in addition to the factional kill.
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70566
Joined: February 24, 2013
Contact:

Post Post #430 (ISO) » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

In post 429, gobbledygook wrote:For balancing purposes, it is like giving the mafia a vigilante kill. It removes a town power in addition to the factional kill.
A vig kill speeds up lylo

This is a really bad take
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
skitter30
skitter30
she/her
Last Laugh
User avatar
User avatar
skitter30
she/her
Last Laugh
Last Laugh
Posts: 32951
Joined: March 26, 2017
Pronoun: she/her
Location: Est

Post Post #431 (ISO) » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:23 pm

Post by skitter30 »

In post 428, Wake1 wrote:I think we need more flavor roles like Gunsmith.

Like how a role can check for guns across various roles, have another check for, say, specific clothing, etc.
i like this idea
Show
Hiatus once more.

'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me

'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me

'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA

'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
User avatar
Wake1
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8683
Joined: August 3, 2013

Post Post #432 (ISO) » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:25 pm

Post by Wake1 »

In post 431, skitter30 wrote:
In post 428, Wake1 wrote:I think we need more flavor roles like Gunsmith.

Like how a role can check for guns across various roles, have another check for, say, specific clothing, etc.
i like this idea
Like, create a role called the "Tailor," who can check and see who's wearing a suit or isn't. Then we decide which PRs wear suits and which don't.
"It's wise to be... cautious... with Wake."
— House*
"What Wake lacks in charisma, he makes up for it in pure analytic power."
— Nosferatu*
User avatar
gobbledygook
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7861
Joined: July 24, 2019

Post Post #433 (ISO) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:17 am

Post by gobbledygook »

Vanilla cop and it’s ilk already do that to an extent. Same with PT cop and traffic analyst.
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 63692
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: Bigender (He/She)

Post Post #434 (ISO) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:43 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 426, gobbledygook wrote:I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.
MAFIA vanillaizer sure. Town vanillaizer can be interesting (though I still firmly believe it to be not-normal).
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.

Visit my
new
GTKAS page here!
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 63692
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: Bigender (He/She)

Post Post #435 (ISO) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:44 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

What Town roles would wear a suit btw
I like the idea but imo it has very limited unique utility
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.

Visit my
new
GTKAS page here!
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #436 (ISO) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:17 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 429, gobbledygook wrote:
In post 427, Amrun wrote:
In post 426, gobbledygook wrote:I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.
I don’t see why?

I mean, straight up mountainous is fun. For me at least.

I don’t think it should be used often. I just don’t know why it’s not an option.
For balancing purposes, it is like giving the mafia a vigilante kill. It removes a town power in addition to the factional kill.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

It would need to be balanced carefully but it is NOT like a vigilante kill.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Wake1
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8683
Joined: August 3, 2013

Post Post #437 (ISO) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:17 pm

Post by Wake1 »

In post 435, Gamma Emerald wrote:What Town roles would wear a suit btw
I like the idea but imo it has very limited unique utility
Or maybe a uniform?

Cops wear uniforms.

A doctor wears scrubs.

I don't know.

I do know the Gunsmith role is an example of where Mafia could be expanded next.

I should create a themed Mafia game using this kind of angle, and perhaps those roles could become Normalized.

A Tailor could check what kind of clothing someone is wearing. A Chef could perhaps tell what kind of food a PR would like. I don't know.

More roles exactly like the Gunsmith. That, I think, is the way to expand this game Normally.
"It's wise to be... cautious... with Wake."
— House*
"What Wake lacks in charisma, he makes up for it in pure analytic power."
— Nosferatu*
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 63692
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: Bigender (He/She)

Post Post #438 (ISO) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:49 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Alright, so Cops would pretty clearly like donuts, what about some other roles?
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.

Visit my
new
GTKAS page here!
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #439 (ISO) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:50 am

Post by Amrun »

I don’t think those types of roles belong in Normals. However, they could be very fun in a theme.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 63692
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: Bigender (He/She)

Post Post #440 (ISO) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:52 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.

Visit my
new
GTKAS page here!
User avatar
Wake1
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8683
Joined: August 3, 2013

Post Post #441 (ISO) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:53 am

Post by Wake1 »

In post 438, Gamma Emerald wrote:Alright, so Cops would pretty clearly like donuts, what about some other roles?
We've got Babysitter, Fruit Vendor, Defective, Mailman, Psychologist...

We Just need to create more job-like roles, and then flesh them out more. And these jobs could act similar to the Gunsmith, providing information without definitely proving someone's guilt.

If I create another large theme game I could create many more roles similar to the Gunsmith, and try to flesh out identifiable information attached to each role.
"It's wise to be... cautious... with Wake."
— House*
"What Wake lacks in charisma, he makes up for it in pure analytic power."
— Nosferatu*
User avatar
Wake1
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Wake1
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8683
Joined: August 3, 2013

Post Post #442 (ISO) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:55 am

Post by Wake1 »

In post 439, Amrun wrote:I don’t think those types of roles belong in Normals. However, they could be very fun in a theme.
They're basically just like the Gunsmith, but different variations.

The Gunsmith checks if someone else owns a gun. The "X" role checks if that other player has a "Y".
"It's wise to be... cautious... with Wake."
— House*
"What Wake lacks in charisma, he makes up for it in pure analytic power."
— Nosferatu*
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #443 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:37 am

Post by Amrun »

In post 440, Gamma Emerald wrote:Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer
A vanillaizer is a long standing role that everyone is familiar with.

These new variants change how we think about the game and would have people needing to look them up, so they’re not normal. Totally viable roles though.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
chennisden
chennisden
Macho Pichu
User avatar
User avatar
chennisden
Macho Pichu
Macho Pichu
Posts: 8907
Joined: February 11, 2019
Location: sheltered in place

Post Post #444 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:50 am

Post by chennisden »

I think gating vanillaizer would be ideal if it were used

Probably limited shot

I think it rewards scumteams who can find PRs better significantly more so the pro is it gives them more agency but the con is it might introduce swing.
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Bigender (He/She)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 63692
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: Bigender (He/She)

Post Post #445 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:55 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 443, Amrun wrote:
In post 440, Gamma Emerald wrote:Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer
A vanillaizer is a long standing role that everyone is familiar with.

These new variants change how we think about the game and would have people needing to look them up, so they’re not normal. Totally viable roles though.
Wasn't Gunsmith like that when it was introduced?
And "long standing" + "familiar" doesn't make it fair at all.
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.

Visit my
new
GTKAS page here!
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #446 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:32 am

Post by Amrun »

In post 445, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 443, Amrun wrote:
In post 440, Gamma Emerald wrote:Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer
A vanillaizer is a long standing role that everyone is familiar with.

These new variants change how we think about the game and would have people needing to look them up, so they’re not normal. Totally viable roles though.
Wasn't Gunsmith like that when it was introduced?
And "long standing" + "familiar" doesn't make it fair at all.
If I thought vanillizer was unfair, I’d agree with you. Being long-standing doesn’t give it a pass. Being new doesn’t make it not good. I don’t think there’s a need for Tailor, but if we normalized/standardized what roles had what clothes, it could work. I just think that design space is already filled with gunsmith.

But I agree that vanillizer rewards good scum play and can even have cool design application as town. I don’t think it should be used a lot but I think nothing makes it ABNORMAL.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 3715
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #447 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:37 am

Post by TemporalLich »

vanillaizer is a very strong scum role and a pretty weak town role

It's almost as strong as giving scum a vigilante, but town might see it as negative utility.
time will end
User avatar
popsofctown
popsofctown
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
popsofctown
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12356
Joined: September 23, 2008

Post Post #448 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 am

Post by popsofctown »

I think a Disloyal N1 Town Vanilliser is an ok role for a normal
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
User avatar
gobbledygook
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
gobbledygook
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7861
Joined: July 24, 2019

Post Post #449 (ISO) » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:39 am

Post by gobbledygook »

did we ever fully put to test addressing the motion sensor/follower/voyeur stuff? I think those roles can be broken into component parts/modified enough that putting them into circulation would increase the diversity of normals.
Post Reply