White Flag - TM2020

[Auro]

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

[Cephrir]

I don't think it's a good reason to suspect someone the way you initially stated it
I'm not sure theres a significant difference between minus points and thinking something is more likely than some other action to be a scum tactic

[wgeurts]

Reading up, been mildly jetlagged as I flew to Australia a few days ago. Expect much more from me.

[wgeurts]

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

I'm not going to have a lot of time to invest in TM, so decided I'd go for the simplest setup.

Dude what. Quickly interrupting me reading up to state how this is a terrible idea. Why would you participate in an event consisting of games where everyone is expected to be playing at their best, knowing you don't have the time to do so?

Others are dependent on your performance, not just of your team but also your faction in this game. You are an absolute liability to the town if you don't put in effort, which takes time. I really hope to see it from you.

[wgeurts]

It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.

I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you? That's not usually something that comes to mind as town this early game when most of the content is without weight.

[wgeurts]

Cephrir is probably town. I'm gonna eat a hat if not.

[wgeurts]

Okay so, I like Dunnstral and Cephrir for town, probably also Hopkirk but I want to talk with them. I don't particularly like both FormerFish and Auro, and have doubts on Turkey being scum as the interaction with Cephrir seemed pretty TvT for an early game exchange. I want to hear more thoughts from Joan as sorting them can be tedious if they're not all too invested.

Will write up my explanations in a bit. I'm way too tired at the moment.

[Dannflor]

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you?

Think you may have misread my post or the context?

Can you elaborate on why you don't like Auro? Also, specifically what about Cephrir vs. Gobble feels TvT to you? Mostly interested in those two answers when you're feeling less tired. I've reached sort of the same conclusion regarding Cephrir and Gobble but I'm not very confident both those reads are right yet.

[Dannflor]

Dannflor asked gobble twice something along the lines of whether gobble gets why people might be concerned he's asking an empty question. Ironically, I think concerns that someone initiating RQS is scum "hiding behind" it has been overblown every single time I have ever seem an RQS. It's of course good to know why gobble asked the question, but I ironically think overly nitpicking RQS is an easy thing for scum to do to look like they're doing something. In turn, I have a small amount of beef with Auro in particular for opening with the assumption that it will yield nothing useful, and also with Dannflor for seeming to try to overly emphasize it's only reasonable to be suspicious of gobble. I do, however, appreciate Dann's analysis that the wooden tone from gobble fits with tryhard town, which is evidence Dann is trying to get a real read from this.

My point in asking that question to Gobble was to determine whether his rather OMGUS push on Cephrir and suspicion of Auro came from an incredulous town place or awkward scum. Based off tone, I feel like gobble is town who has come in and made some awkward posts/flubs that they're having trouble recovering from. The problem is, I don't have solid reasoning for why they aren't just scum instead—besides gut—soooooo very not confident read. Except for the fact that I think it's just not that easy.

I don't know. I'm waiting on him to respond to Dunnstrall's walls hopefully with a bit of a cooler head.

Overall, I think he's been a bit too careless/hyperactive to be scum here. Like I see the points others are making about his tone being more defensive here, but my gut is saying frustrated town.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Formerfish

FF, are you like legit scum reading me at this point or still on the fence? If the latter, do you have any questions about my posts/play so far that I can address and get you moving in a more concrete direction? I'd expect you to be going after me a little more here in either case.

Also, I think you're overstating the amount of content you've contributed. You've got some mechanical talk and some needlessly aggressive one liners but not too much else beyond the bluster. I did like when you engaged with me briefly! But that didn't really end up going anywhere. So where is your head at now? Like reads wise.

I read stuff like #151 and #153 and can't tell if you're just blustering to bluster or if you are finding Gobble legitimately scummy.

I'm not asking for a structured reads list necessarily I just want to know what your strongest gut feels or reads are that you've picked up so far.

[Dannflor]

I think Hopkirk is actually my strongest town read and that's been backed up by my team.

[Auro]

Dude what. Quickly interrupting me reading up to state how this is a terrible idea. Why would you participate in an event consisting of games where everyone is expected to be playing at their best, knowing you don't have the time to do so?

Others are dependent on your performance, not just of your team but also your faction in this game. You are an absolute liability to the town if you don't put in effort, which takes time. I really hope to see it from you.

I said I don't have a *lot* of time, doesn't mean I'm going to do nothing. A simpler game allows me to focus more on pure gameplay.
Our stated reads match to some extent - Formerfish and Turkey - so what's your concern about me exactly? Join the FF wagon?

I don't think it's a good reason to suspect someone the way you initially stated it
I'm not sure theres a significant difference between minus points and thinking something is more likely than some other action to be a scum tactic

It's quite simple reasoning. A continued push on reasons I (at least initially) disagreed with, on a slot I judge likely town, is slightly likelier to come from scum than random to my eyes. You've never seen someone push someone else for pushing a townread of theirs?
Also, can you give me a brief explanation of your scumreads so far?

[Donempire]

Also Dongempire, is your vote serious?

Sure, you can consider it as such. What do you make of it?

Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.

Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?

Not a fan of this. The first part feels like the 'make up a technically flawless answer that perfectly explains why I asked a question when I absolutely wasn't thinking about that logic when I asked it' that I used to catch myself doing as scum a while back. It feels semi-over engineered/too prepared for someone asking.

Second point is oddly hostile. Not really a question since it's rhetorical and nobody is ever really going to say 'yes I wanted to stop us introducing discussion into the game.'

Hopkirk 'Hopper' Hopkirk

I understand the reasoning but disagree.

The first paragraph is a very politician like statement but i think its genuine. Besides, you dont really have to have a reason for starting discussion. The fact that he didnt brush the question aside by saying what i say and responded even if safely means that his hearts in the right place.

And yeah, the second paraghraph isnt a question. I dont think its as hostile as you make it out to be either, it simply tells him to back off since questioning someone raising activity without increasing activity yourself is counterintuitive as town. This is how i would have responded too.

But i can still understand where you are coming from as i said and think that this post is very towny.

[Donempire]

Do you think there is scum motivation for asking that question?

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

So you feel hes more likely to be scum from those posts than town, given that you gave reasons he could be scum without pointing out the ways he could be town from that while saying his posts might be town motivated or scum motivated. It bugs me you didnt just straight up say that. It feels like you are trying to play it safe by not calling him scum but shading him regardless.
And besides that, i dont think "your meta as scum" is a good question either. Scum can lie here and town might self incriminate. And this isnt something that provokes discussion either unlike gobble. I want to read everything before saying anything concrete but yeah, dont like this post at least.

[Donempire]

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.

[Auro]

So you feel hes more likely to be scum from those posts than town, given that you gave reasons he could be scum without pointing out the ways he could be town from that while saying his posts might be town motivated or scum motivated. It bugs me you didnt just straight up say that. It feels like you are trying to play it safe by not calling him scum but shading him regardless.
And besides that, i dont think "your meta as scum" is a good question either. Scum can lie here and town might self incriminate. And this isnt something that provokes discussion either unlike gobble. I want to read everything before saying anything concrete but yeah, dont like this post at least.

Um, no, I was just highlighting possible scum motivation since he asked what scum motivation could be there. You will see that I eventually take more solid stances on a variety of slots, alleging that I'm 'playing it safe' is untrue.

"your meta as scum" is a perfectly good question - scum lies can be caught easily, and the response helps give insight into the person's playing style. I'd usually expect very different approaches towards answering the question from both alignments, wouldn't you?

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.

Agree. The timing of his vote throws doesn't seem very towny to me either. Still, I'm happier voting FF, and I'd like to see your opinions on him first.

[Donempire]

Um, no, I was just highlighting possible scum motivation since he asked what scum motivation could be there. You will see that I eventually take more solid stances on a variety of slots, alleging that I'm 'playing it safe' is untrue.

"your meta as scum" is a perfectly good question - scum lies can be caught easily, and the response helps give insight into the person's playing style. I'd usually expect very different approaches towards answering the question from both alignments, wouldn't you?

I dont have a problem with you responding to his question, but why did you feel the need to mention that there could be a town agenda also without providing an example for that? Thats what bugs me.
And you may take the most controversial, extreme opinions later in the game, but right now i stand by saying that you're playing it incredibly safe.

I'm interested to hear how you'd easily catch scum lying about their meta, what would you do exactly to find out they are lying? Cause if its reading their scum games for that, then the question is unnecessary as you can just whip out the games and find it out without asking. And yes, i'd agree different approaches. Town would sometimes self incriminate due to meta being mostly similar with slight variation between them, and scum would lie. If they dont then scum can also self incriminate, making it non different for both alignments, therefore not an usefull question.

[Donempire]

wgeurts is at an alarmingly high vote percentage for someone i dont remember as vividly as someone like gobble or ceph. Can someone explain the reasoning or is it all rvs votes?

[Cephrir]

@Auro: I have a light scumread on you and that's it. This doesn't worry me right now because several players are not posting, and it's not unusual for me to take a while to develop reads I feel good about.

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

[Auro]

I dont have a problem with you responding to his question, but why did you feel the need to mention that there could be a town agenda also without providing an example for that? Thats what bugs me.
And you may take the most controversial, extreme opinions later in the game, but right now i stand by saying that you're playing it incredibly safe.

Then you've not read my post properly. I was calling out scum motivation in maintaining secrecy about the reasoning behind the question; not scum motivation for the question itself.
Even then, this is such a small point to be concerned about -- that I'm not providing an 'example' of town agenda -- I find it odd that this of all things bugs you.
Incredibly safe? I've openly attacked FormerFish, Dunnstral, Cephrir; I've hard-defended Gobbledygook in the last few pages, which stances of mine do you find 'incredibly safe'?

Your entire attack on me is grasping and empty, and not reminiscent of the time we played together last.
VOTE: Dongempire

I'm interested to hear how you'd easily catch scum lying about their meta, what would you do exactly to find out they are lying? Cause if its reading their scum games for that, then the question is unnecessary as you can just whip out the games and find it out without asking. And yes, i'd agree different approaches. Town would sometimes self incriminate due to meta being mostly similar with slight variation between them, and scum would lie. If they dont then scum can also self incriminate, making it non different for both alignments, therefore not an usefull question.

Yes, and hence forces them to answer truthfully. Of course I'll

also

take a look at their scumgames (which I did) and if they're lying, great!

Any

question can get a town-but-incriminating or scum-but-lying response, that hardly makes the questions themselves useless. Especially since the intent of that question wasn't to weaponize it and look for holes, rather to just develop an insight into their playstyle from their own words. You're spending a lot of words here saying nothing.

[Auro]

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

I think he means you don't appear to be engaging with people in the spirit of solving the game.
Your posts seem to have the following pattern: {Make an attack, generic stance, generic stance, unexplained vote switch}.
Your attacks themselves aren't all that impressive, and I don't see any effort made into

engaging

with players to find out more about them.

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.
Do you disagree?

[Cephrir]

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

I think he means you don't appear to be engaging with people in the spirit of solving the game.

Funny, I can't find that in his post at all. Maybe you're making it up.

Your posts seem to have the following pattern: {Make an attack, generic stance, generic stance, unexplained vote switch}.

I don't think there's anything especially generic about my opinions. It's a fun word to throw at me though! Yes I have switched twice. Wow what a strong pattern I guess this must be the only thing I'll ever do.

Your attacks themselves aren't all that impressive, and I don't see any effort made into

engaging

with players to find out more about them.

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.
Do you disagree?

I haven't engaged gobble? Or dann, if not at length? What universe do you live in?
I don't really do extended 1v1s if I can help it. I don't typically find that to be useful. I also have a tendency to glaze over long posts and stop processing them at some point, and this game has a lot of those.

Of course I disagree. Even if this was the extent of my style (it isn't), styles cannot be scummy. That's why they're called style, not alignment indicative information.

[Dannflor]

Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?

[Auro]

Funny, I can't find that in his post at all. Maybe you're making it up.

"Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to

engage properly

"

I don't think there's anything especially generic about my opinions. It's a fun word to throw at me though! Yes I have switched twice. Wow what a strong pattern I guess this must be the only thing I'll ever do.

Spoiler: Meh

is elements doing a bit or something? idgi

so i've played two games with you, and i thought you looked really town when you were scum and were boring and just kind of there when you were town. is this a pattern, or is it just me?

i just reskimmed him and liked it more than i did the first time, and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good

i wonder if i'll be able to disentangle kittymo's alignment from generally enjoying her as a poster/person.

I haven't engaged gobble? Or dann, if not at length? What universe do you live in?
I don't really do extended 1v1s if I can help it. I don't typically find that to be useful. I also have a tendency to glaze over long posts and stop processing them at some point, and this game has a lot of those.

Again,

alignment-seeking

engagement. You're responding to questions, sure, but you don't look like you're solving. Also given that the walls aren't doing much for you, I'd expect you to try and interact more with the intent of sorting people.

Of course I disagree. Even if this was the extent of my style (it isn't), styles cannot be scummy. That's why they're called style, not alignment indicative information.

Styles can absolutely be anti-town, and hence scummy.

[Auro]

Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?

I've quoted a few, but it's hard to provide concrete examples of something that's missing.
Do you not get the same impression looking at his engagements with other slots - that he's not making an attempt to sort them through the engagements?