Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Amrun]

^ no but we should.

[Amrun]

vanillaizer is a very strong scum role and a pretty weak town role

It's almost as strong as giving scum a vigilante, but town might see it as negative utility.

I disagree about the degree of strength, but I think an ungated vanillizer would be exceedingly rare anyway. Just because something is difficult to balance doesn’t make it not normal - that’s what reviews are for.

[TemporalLich]

Yeah I guess.

Vigilante is only normal for Town though, so Vanillaizer might be only normal for Town if balancing is an issue.

[Ircher]

vanillaizer is a very strong scum role and a pretty weak town role

It's almost as strong as giving scum a vigilante, but town might see it as negative utility.

I disagree about the degree of strength, but I think an ungated vanillizer would be exceedingly rare anyway. Just because something is difficult to balance doesn’t make it not normal - that’s what reviews are for.

That's true, but simply putting unbalanced roles on the whitelist encourages people to (mis)use the role when designing setups.

Maybe the Normal Queue should go back to having a greylist, but with the possible greylist roles explicitly specified.

[popsofctown]

vanillaizer is a very strong scum role and a pretty weak town role

It's almost as strong as giving scum a vigilante, but town might see it as negative utility.

I disagree about the degree of strength, but I think an ungated vanillizer would be exceedingly rare anyway. Just because something is difficult to balance doesn’t make it not normal - that’s what reviews are for.

That's true, but simply putting unbalanced roles on the whitelist encourages people to (mis)use the role when designing setups.

Maybe the Normal Queue should go back to having a greylist, but with the possible greylist roles explicitly specified.

As long as all normal are going through the Normal Review group this doesn't make sense to me at all. You can water down the approved roles to nothing but stronger than doctor and someone can still submit "7 doctors, two mafia goons" to the NRG. What actually ensures players get a balanced setup is the NRG's review, not the list of approved roles.

If you think people are going to submit "1 Mafia Vanillizer 1 Goon 1 Tracker 1 Fruit Vendor 5 VT" to the NRG over and over again if Vanillizer is available and will always just submit a more reasonable Mafia Rolecop in its place when Vanillizer is blacklist, devoid of any understanding of the balance of the roles, like, I don't think the harm is that great and we can nudge people to mod an open until they're more familiar with balance if needed. I don't think longer/more frequent reviews is this huge cost.. I'm not even sure it's obvious this increase the number of rejected reviews, like I said, people can submit 2 Goon 7 Doctor an indefinite number of times if they don't understand balance.


I think vanillizer should be a town-only role if it is added to normals, but that's not because I think more imbalanced setups will be designed, it's because I'd prefer the lesser increase in the possibility space (I'd rather towns not ever have to evaluate a Mafiosi who claims he was a watcher n1 and right now he's vanillized).

[gobbledygook]

Yeah I guess.

Vigilante is only normal for Town though, so Vanillaizer might be only normal for Town if balancing is an issue.

That’s a great point.

[Amrun]

Pops makes a good point re: fakeclaims. I would be fine with vanillizer being town only.

[Romeo and Juliet]

However, that essentially clears a slot.

[chennisden]

However, that essentially clears a slot.

[chennisden]

I'd argue it's poor design to put so much power in one slot.

[Amrun]

However, that essentially clears a slot.

How? There are many town-only roles, such as vig.

[gobbledygook]

Yeah pretty much all of my hate about it goes away if we make it like a vig. That's funny to me.

I can't decide if it is stronger or worse than a vig. It is kind of both. It is less punishing from a setup perspective/night play perspective, but seems more punishing from a day play perspective

[chennisden]

you'd expect neg utility roles with a vanillaizer.

i think being able to remove them concentrates a lot of power in one place.

[TemporalLich]

I don't think Town Vanillaizer would be too much to ask for but it does technically violate an expectation of Normal (Roles should never change), but Backup (technically not if you consider it a modifier and not part of a role) and UBackup (no excuse there) also violate that expectation.

I really think we need to outline the expectations of Normal and then decide if Town Vanillaizer is normal or not.

[Amrun]

I don't think Town Vanillaizer would be too much to ask for but it does technically violate an expectation of Normal (Roles should never change), but Backup (technically not if you consider it a modifier and not part of a role) and UBackup (no excuse there) also violate that expectation.

I really think we need to outline the expectations of Normal and then decide if Town Vanillaizer is normal or not.

Agree with this.

[gobbledygook]

you'd expect neg utility roles with a vanillaizer.

i think being able to remove them concentrates a lot of power in one place.

Miller + vanillalizer is interesting design space.

What happens if a vanillalizer hits a mason?

[chennisden]

Mason loses PT access.

[AaronFrost]

I don't think Town Vanillaizer would be too much to ask for but it does technically violate an expectation of Normal (Roles should never change), but Backup (technically not if you consider it a modifier and not part of a role) and UBackup (no excuse there) also violate that expectation.

The difference with those roles is that Backups go into the game knowing that they can eventually become a PR, and in the case of like a Backup Tracker, they know what role they would take over.

With Vanillaizer, the vanillaized player doesn't know about it until they are vanillaized. I think if it were to be included in a normal game it would need to be explicitly stated that the game has a vanillaizer.

[TemporalLich]

In that case Vanillaizer shouldn't be Normal based on that alone, that indicates it would alter Normal expectations a lot and make Normal feel very different (similar to the reason Supersaint isn't normal).

Normal games should feel like Normal games. Having to worry about uncommon roles that place a lot of undue influence on a Normal just by possibly existing is not Normal.

[Plum]

Having to worry about uncommon roles that place a lot of undue influence on a Normal just by possibly existing is not Normal.

Agreed, and Ninja should be removed from the whitelist and Miller has less direct need for that but probably should as well.

[Dunnstral]

Mason loses PT access.

What if I argued that the current rules do not make it clear whether masons count as having a neighborhood or a factional pt?

[Amrun]

Having to worry about uncommon roles that place a lot of undue influence on a Normal just by possibly existing is not Normal.

Agreed, and Ninja should be removed from the whitelist and Miller has less direct need for that but probably should as well.

I agree with this version of normal and that maybe vanillizer shouldn’t be normal if we use that. However, what “Normal” is isn’t standardized and needs to be.

[popsofctown]

Having to worry about uncommon roles that place a lot of undue influence on a Normal just by possibly existing is not Normal.

Agreed, and Ninja should be removed from the whitelist and Miller has less direct need for that but probably should as well.

[Dunnstral]

Miller seems like a normal role to me

[Wake1]

Is it possible to make a Normal role like the PT Cop that ONLY checks to see if the target is in a Neighborhood or not?

Not sure if it exists already or not. IF not, I think that should be added, because it's weaker than the PT Cop and can't determine anyone's alignment.