White Flag - TM2020

[Donempire]

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

Cant attack my point on you without strawmanning? Fine by me.

If by the way your posting the person you are targeting, gobble in this case, cant respond to you properly as you simply have no case and are just nitpicking then yeah, i have a problem with your activity. Last i checked you had 29 posts, most of which were one liners, and all of them directed at gobble were one liners.

Besides that it wasnt just the posting style i had a problem with but the content of it. As i said all of it is fluff or otherwise nitpicking, so no sanctuary there either. Even if your posts were wallposts it would have no content.

[Donempire]

I dont have a problem with you responding to his question, but why did you feel the need to mention that there could be a town agenda also without providing an example for that? Thats what bugs me.
And you may take the most controversial, extreme opinions later in the game, but right now i stand by saying that you're playing it incredibly safe.

Then you've not read my post properly. I was calling out scum motivation in maintaining secrecy about the reasoning behind the question; not scum motivation for the question itself.
Even then, this is such a small point to be concerned about -- that I'm not providing an 'example' of town agenda -- I find it odd that this of all things bugs you.
Incredibly safe? I've openly attacked FormerFish, Dunnstral, Cephrir; I've hard-defended Gobbledygook in the last few pages, which stances of mine do you find 'incredibly safe'?

Your entire attack on me is grasping and empty, and not reminiscent of the time we played together last.
VOTE: Dongempire

I wasnt clear, i meant playing it safe when it came to pressuring gobble, since you didnt place any concrete read on him as of that post.

You lost me in the first paragraph. I already say that i had no problem with you calling out any scum motivation that post might have had, after all thats what gibble asked for. What i had trouble with was that you needlessly said it could come from both town or scum. That was uncalled for in that case.
It might be a small point, i cant argue about its importance. However it was an interesting point for me to dwell on and thats about how i decide on things to push. It wasnt a clear cut point so i pushed it, do you still have a problem with it?

I dont believe im grasping. I think that anyone who looks at the wording your posts had would come to the same conclusion as i have. And im not trying to push you with this either - im still conflicted on which side you're on and this was a way to clarify perhaps, and as long as you work with me on this instead of brushing it away by saying its grasping...

I'm interested to hear how you'd easily catch scum lying about their meta, what would you do exactly to find out they are lying? Cause if its reading their scum games for that, then the question is unnecessary as you can just whip out the games and find it out without asking. And yes, i'd agree different approaches. Town would sometimes self incriminate due to meta being mostly similar with slight variation between them, and scum would lie. If they dont then scum can also self incriminate, making it non different for both alignments, therefore not an usefull question.

Yes, and hence forces them to answer truthfully. Of course I'll

also

take a look at their scumgames (which I did) and if they're lying, great!

Any

question can get a town-but-incriminating or scum-but-lying response, that hardly makes the questions themselves useless. Especially since the intent of that question wasn't to weaponize it and look for holes, rather to just develop an insight into their playstyle from their own words. You're spending a lot of words here saying nothing.

Whatever. I dont believe it wouldve brought any info worth dwelling over but this is a subjective turf as far as i see it.

[Cephrir]

I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.

[Auro]

I wasnt clear, i meant playing it safe when it came to pressuring gobble, since you didnt place any concrete read on him as of that post.

You lost me in the first paragraph. I already say that i had no problem with you calling out any scum motivation that post might have had, after all thats what gibble asked for. What i had trouble with was that you needlessly said it could come from both town or scum. That was uncalled for in that case.
It might be a small point, i cant argue about its importance. However it was an interesting point for me to dwell on and thats about how i decide on things to push. It wasnt a clear cut point so i pushed it, do you still have a problem with it?

I dont believe im grasping. I think that anyone who looks at the wording your posts had would come to the same conclusion as i have. And im not trying to push you with this either - im still conflicted on which side you're on and this was a way to clarify perhaps, and as long as you work with me on this instead of brushing it away by saying its grasping...

My statement about the question coming from town/scum was to show that I agree there's likelier motivation, clarifying that I was instead talking about the secrecy.
"I agree X can come from both, but, I find scum motivation in Y"
Yes, I still think it's an empty case. I still find it odd that you accused me repeatedly of 'playing it safe' only in the context of a singular push without reading my later posts.

However,
VOTE: Cephrir

[KittyMo]

@Formerfish

The big fan comment to NSG after she voted with you guys is something that pings me too. Like you are trying to gain her favor by pandering to her after she sheeped your sheep.

I did take that as a bit of fanboyism, hence my big fan post. I didn't take it as AI at all though, just unsure of the sentiment.

I'm having some trouble seeing how these fit together. It might help if you expanded on how you're "unsure of the sentiment."

---

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful.

What's the problem with 81? My impression of almost everything Ceph-related is pretty opposite of yours! 81 seems to have a good trajectory from his initial wooden impression, doesn't look overblown but does feel like it shows where it came from. I feel like he is intentional about how much he's engaging but I don't think the motivation is fear. Reading it as someone who recognizes it's early in the game and is playing with some ideas without trying to force things. And sure, half his posts are one liners, but just because you specifically can't think of a response to them doesn't really give me the vibe they're, like, designed that way.

Also Dongempire, is your vote serious?

Sure, you can consider it as such. What do you make of it?

I dig this sentiment.

Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

MINUS POINTS. Based on this comment in particular, combined with the follow-up, I think it's likely Auro genuinely believes gobble is town and thus that is - points for that as a scumpairing.

Overprepared is probably less the term I'd use than 'overengineered'. Something that sounds like it was backed by a solid amount of logic due to thinking you need to have a good justification so you invent the perfect one afterwards.

I've caught myself doing the same thing a fair bit (irl mafia) a couple of times when I accused someone then created a strong argument to back it up that closer inspection would have shown that wasn't something I was thinking when I put it together in the first place.

Hostile tone is personality indicative, but worth following up.

I think your re-explanation of the former shows that you really are connecting his statement with a personal experience. So with that you've cleared up my impression that you were being contradictory. I definitely think "this sounds like me when I'm scum" is a useful type of read because it's more likely to be based in what scum are actually motivated to do than plenty other types of reads. The very like, English lit analysis of tonal stuff that I see in those two comments about gobble from you in #73 is ironically something I lean into a lot when I'm scum. I think it's hard for me to have a full picture of things that feel real for me when I already have the answers, and so I end up going really deep into analysis. And I do it more as scum because I also do it as town, but I guess as town I recognize that overanalysis on tone can accidentally lead me to suspect someone because

I personally wouldn't write it that way as town so they're clearly scum

. So I can appreciate your acknowledgement that the hostility part is interesting to you but something you need to track to discern. But you're kind of on my radar in that I think what you've produced is fake-able, and I'm interested to see how you develop today.

I note Dongempire quite likes #73 from you and that Team Dannflor really likes you overall, am curious if that's meta-based from anyone or just different valuations.

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

Nope

I don't think the post above your vote was indicative of scum them, I think they tend to post like that regardless, in a way that I read as kind of scummy looking

This...feels really over-explainy? Sounds like you're projecting with minimal context to justify it, which to me reads like you're shoehorning trying to look like solving. Furthermore, the post above his vote (url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11480218]#127[/url]) isn't even talking about Auro.

VOTE: Dunnstral

I'm going to let gobble respond to you first before I get into your other content, but I def have thoughts!

[wgeurts]

It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.

I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you? That's not usually something that comes to mind as town this early game when most of the content is without weight.

I was tired and wrote this the wrong way round. Why are you mulling over others thinking they'd think you're pocketing someone else? As town behaviour it's a bit odd but as scum behaviour it would be paranoia. Particularly early game who really thinks someone else is going to be actively pocketing?

[wgeurts]

I'm going out to Sydney for the day but am writing a relatively large wall on my thoughts.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk update here. I was visiting hectic today (part of team 'team' team) and we managed not to discuss team mafia at all except for occasionally confirming that we weren't allowed to talk about it irl and congratulating each other for not discussing it.

I'll be busy tommorow except for potentially an hour or so in the morning. I'll try and devote 1-3 hours on it on Monday. I'm not sure what clients I'm on until then, so the rest of the week ranges from completely free to very dodgy timewise except for Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sundays for roughly the next 3 months where I generally don't have the ability to comment more than single liners, or arguably to eat. I am not currently caught up.

Hop 'hip' hop

[Cephrir]

I feel like I'm doing it wrong continuing to have short posts!

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion, so im content to roll with that for a bit.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think the other variables matter much.

OK, then I don't think your read matters very much - you're only looking surface level at the info that he himself linked

I've hard-defended Gobbledygook in the last few pages,

To a degree I don't feel was appropriate, yes

I think Hopkirk is actually my strongest town read and that's been backed up by my team.

I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.

This is why people are saying you're ignoring engagement, by the way

I don't see a reason to think he's anything other than null right now. Unless his scum game is really bad or something, I don't get why people are townreading him.

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

Nope

I don't think the post above your vote was indicative of scum them, I think they tend to post like that regardless, in a way that I read as kind of scummy looking

This...feels really over-explainy?

I'd say I was explaining something, I wouldn't say I was over-explaining it. Where do you draw the line, and why was it drawn in my probably shortest interaction in the thread?

Sounds like you're projecting with minimal context to justify it, which to me reads like you're shoehorning trying to look like solving.

What am I "projecting" and how does over-explaining relate to that/why does it sound like that?

And if there's minimal context to justify it, then how am I also "over-explaining"? The statements are contradictory because I am the one providing the context - you're adding words that don't make sense here.

The shoehorning thing is another buzz word and I don't think it means anything.

Furthermore, the post above his vote (url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11480218]#127[/url]) isn't even talking about Auro.

The one above that one, I thought it was clear what I was referencing, even though I pointed to the wrong place.

[Dunnstral]

and we managed not to discuss team mafia at all except for occasionally confirming that we weren't allowed to talk about it

So same thing you've been doing in thread then?

[Dunnstral]

You don't deserve that actually, 149 was a good post

[KittyMo]

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

Nope

I don't think the post above your vote was indicative of scum them, I think they tend to post like that regardless, in a way that I read as kind of scummy looking

Ohhhhh I misread the word "them" as then. That changes my view of this entirely. Sorry!

[KittyMo]

Like how I read it, was that you would have specifically found Ceph scummy for voting if Ceph had played with Auro before because you've incorrectly suspected Auro before.

You essentially just telling him you think Auro is null is whatever.

[Cephrir]

This is why people are saying you're ignoring engagement, by the way

Meh.

I don't want to spend pages 1v1ing someone because they think my playstyle is scummy, nor do I want to increase apathy by making everyone else read that.

[Dunnstral]

I don't see a reason to think he's anything other than null right now. Unless his scum game is really bad or something, I don't get why people are townreading him.

This is talking about Hopkirk by the way, not Ceph

[T-Bone]

Vote Count

KittyMo - 2

(wgeurts, Hopkirk)

Formerfish - 2

(Dongempire, Dannflor)

wguerts - 1

(northsidegal)

Dannflor - 1

(Formerfish)

Hopkirk - 1

(gobbledygook)

Auro - 1

(Cephrir)

gobbledygook - 1

(Dunnstral)

Cephrir - 1

(Auro)

Dunnstral - 1

(Kittymo)

Not Voting - 2

(Espeonage, Joan of Arc)

Activity Check - Prodding Espeonage, northsidegal

Deadline: (expired on 2020-01-16 22:59:30)

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to Lynch

[northsidegal]

oh hi its me

[Formerfish]

I won't be getting to this tonight. I'm only like 2 pages back, but I feel like the 2 pages before it don't look familiar. I'll start I to those pages tomorrow, Monday by the latest.

[Auro]

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

[Auro]

oh hi its me

Hi!! So who's scum nsg?

[northsidegal]

my current working townblock is {dunn, kittymo, wgeurts}

i'm trusting my team's ceph townreads

[northsidegal]

sorry dann, this game will not be the full "nsg experience"

think we may have already found scum though, holding off on committing for now

[northsidegal]

and rc wanted me to say that dunn's reads are basically the same as his

[northsidegal]

okay he's bothering me to say that he specifically means on gobbles