TM2020 | Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime! | Endgame

[jjh927]

Why did you make that post in response to such minimal pressure from me when you haven't called me scum elsewhere?

[Klick]

I think I'm developing a townread on Jingle? Or at least, the last few posts of his I've read have felt insightful and heading in a good direction.

[Jingle]

I mean, the thing that switched my focus was the rather extensive list of discredits, especially with the context of Bitmap going straight to discrediting me the second I made clear he was still very much on my scumpile.

Facetious question:

Have you played a game containing both Firebrunger and Mastina?

[Bitmap]

I mean I know I'm only being pushed because scum team is afraid of RC.

Why does Bitmap make this post in response to such minimal pressure from me when he hasn't called me scum elsewhere?

It's a response that doesn't make sense naturally from some persecution complex. He has adopted the victim mindset in order to defend himself.

Have you ever played with RC before?

Yes. You are not RC

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

[jjh927]

Also I kinda do feel like this idea that Bitmap has been pushed around is people buying into a bullshit narrative. He's playing the victim but he just isn't here; again- look at that extensive list of discredits against mastina and see how much stacks up the other way

[mastina]

You know how mastina plays scum right?

Yep!
Do you?
Apparently not.

I realize that this is team mafia with an absurdly high number of players--I told my team before when there were still swaps allowed that if I rolled scum they should swap me out into a towngame because half of the players in team mafia attribute to my scumgame, what the other half of the players in team mafia attribute to my towngame, and vice-versa, so that no matter how I played I would be scumread by half the players in team mafia because the things expected of me as town by some are the very same things others expect of me as scum so I would always have people scumreading me and being scumread as scum would be more devastating for us as a team than me being scumread as town. (Because scum have only three members whereas town has ten and thus scumread as scum is a third of the team dead whereas scumread as town is, IF it ends in a mislynch, only a fifth of the team dead between the mislynch and the scum's nightkill and is potentially useful. My death as scum, not very useful in a team mafia environment; my death as town, could POTENTIALLY be useful in a team mafia environment. Basically.)

And I realize that I literally went a full year (and counting!) without drawing scum so even those who've encountered my scumgame are a bit rusty on it.

And I realize that I have multiple, multiple, MULTIPLE different towngames (and similarly so for scumgames) so what you see as my towngame in one game won't be my towngame in another game even though I shared the common element of the same alignment in both games.

But.

This is pretty damn transparently one of my towngames.

And I'll be honest, it's been such a long time since I last randed scum (like I said--I played something like ~20-40 games last year and got town in every single one of them), so I can't actually say for absolute

certain

how I'd act as scumastina.

But I am still

fairly

sure.
That whatever my scumgame looks like right now.
This aint it.
There are things that I can fake as scum; there are many many many more that I cannot.
Plus, even if I could. They exist one at a time, not all at once; them all existing in a scumgame is impossible.

I'm not going to lie, I can recognize some aspects of my play this game which I know could be seen as maybe possibly scumastina indicators--
...But those indicators are dwarfed by the sheer mountain of reasons why this isn't my scumgame because this isn't something in my scumrange. Vast as my scumrange is, it aint bottomless and I can just

tell

that I am outside of it right now.

I've been avoiding making posts like this because I know that they are a bit of a trap that has, traditionally, dragged me into an ego-war, where it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. People in team mafia expect me to be bad as town, and then I respond to them with a longwinded self-meta rant, and in doing so, by doing that self-meta longwinded rant, I end up being precisely what I was trying to avoid, bad at the game and an overall detriment to the game.

To put it another way:
2019 was a really damn good year for me in my towngames and my towngame got a LOT better during it with me having many many many good performances--not Paragon-nomination-worthy (much as I dreamed), but still really damn good.
And I wanted to show off that, yes, in 2019 I became a much much stronger town player correcting a fair number of my weaknesses.

Yet I know the best way to throw that all out the window.
Toss out all the good, leave only the bad.
Is to make posts like this one so god help me I am praying the fuck that I continue to have the restraint necessary for this to be the

only

egocentric selfmeta spamfest wallpost that I make and that for the rest of the game I can show off the

better

parts of my game.

But to again keep the longest story short:
This is not my scumgame. If you think this is my scumgame, your model of my scumgame is wrong because this is about as far away from my scumgame as is humanly possible.

[jjh927]

Oh there's the classic mastina post about her own scum meta wonderful

One day I'll learn to read her alignment just from this

[mastina]

@mastina

It was more or less "Jingle is being so blatantly obviously opportunistic there's no way that he's actually scum", more or less a too scummy for a competent player to actually be scum argument.

Hey mastina, what's my opinion on D1 wagons on me?

tl;dr on the case in rough order of strength:

Projection
Discrediting
Lack of Follow Through
Defensiveness
Trajectory

Am I wrong in my summation?

I answered both of these?

It was more or less "Jingle is being so blatantly obviously opportunistic there's no way that he's actually scum", more or less a too scummy for a competent player to actually be scum argument.

Hey mastina, what's my opinion on D1 wagons on me?

I know I should know this.
I really really really REALLY should.
I know you expect me to know the answer to this because by all rights I should know the answer to it and have literally no reason to not know the answer because I KNOW that I know it, dammit, so you're not unreasonable in expecting me to know it, either. You have every reason to believe that I would know this because I do, dammit.

But uh.
I can't remember.

tl;dr on the case in rough order of strength:

Projection
Discrediting
Lack of Follow Through
Defensiveness
Trajectory

Am I wrong in my summation?

Mostly correct but leaves out that Bitmap's team's contributions to this game are incredibly suspect in their nature and an overall focus on looking town without doing anything actually town.
Plus, jjh's assessment of Bitmap's contributions felt on-point; white knighting likely mislynches (namely, Klick) to set up for future towncred.

You're not going to get more info than that by quoting those posts again because I said everything I can think of the first time?

[jjh927]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

Because you have RC trying to make sure you win it?

[mastina]

I think the idea that Bitmap isn't actually feeling the 'persecution complex' and it's all just a scum ploy is a bit silly.

Who says that they need to be mutually exclusive?

Bitmap can very well perfectly, genuinely, feel shitty about the RC/not RC dilemma--that does not mean that it isn't also a scum ploy to play this feeling up.

The existence of the feeling being real isn't something I really feel like calling into doubt. Maybe it's real, maybe it's not, I don't really care either way.
What Bitmap is doing with the stated feeling is something I want to talk about--because Bitmap is absolutely exploiting it.

[Jingle]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

It's cool, man. We're no where near ready for a lynch yet. I'm playing the game of sculpting the game to where reads can be generated rather than generating reads right now, and you were the sacrifice to make that happen. It should cool down significantly from here.

[jjh927]

But Jingle, you pushed mastina, not Bitmap

[mastina]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

And you should know that constantly saying this as a response to the pressure on you is not a valid defense. Doesn't matter if it's true that the game's stressful on you; you are trying to exploit the "this game is stressful for me" narrative to downplay the very valid criticisms of your play this game.

[mastina]

One day I'll learn to read her alignment just from this

Not actually impossible; some people do precisely that!
(It's actually a fairly good way to do it imo. I honestly don't know how to describe the difference between the self-meta as scumastina and the self-meta as town-mastina nor can I actually really identify what it is, but I KNOW that there IS a difference between the two so reading me off of it IS possible.)

[Jingle]

You're not going to get more info than that by quoting those posts again because I said everything I can think of the first time?

Sorry, missed those. I'm kinda paying more attention to Scummies judging atm, tbh.

I'm firmly in support of early wagons on me because A) early wagons are easy to derail and being wagoned early means it makes complete sense for you to not have been nightkilled late (as scum) and B) people voting/suspecting/dancing around me are way easier to analyze than people whose alignment I don't know.

tl;dr You're townreading me FOR BEING ME which is only slightly better than townreading me for the obligatory "I'm a terrifying PR and you should shoot me" crumb I make in just about every game. I expect considerably more paranoia regarding me from you, because you KNOW that I think my scumgame is leagues above my towngame AND that my biggest asset as town isn't read strength. I find this questionable as balls.

[Jingle]

But Jingle, you pushed mastina, not Bitmap

I dragged RC into the game AND poked Bitmap creating the core of mastina's case forever ago. Keep up, wizard, I'm always scheming.

God, why is this game the boring one.

RC, ask RC who we should pressure.

Ok thanks mastina

definitely

being a town asset using 7 year old games.

You seem interestingly sure that mastina is town. Care to comment?

[mastina]

(Huh. Decided to count it and if my count wasn't wrong--it was precisely 20 games that I played last year. All of them town. Well, 19 plus a 3p which I was playing as if town, but same thing. )

[mastina]

because you KNOW that I think my scumgame is leagues above my towngame

Uh.
Do I?
I uh.
I'm not sure that I do know this.

AND that my biggest asset as town isn't read strength.

I mean yes your biggest asset is more or less a combination of things but largely mechanics/rolebased deduction more or less where you can gamesolve by looking at multiple different things and weave them together into reads and such to form a gamewinning plan more or less but I don't see how that would make you any less of a threat as town because that's precisely what makes you a threat as town?

[jjh927]

But Jingle, you pushed mastina, not Bitmap

I dragged RC into the game AND poked Bitmap creating the core of mastina's case forever ago. Keep up, wizard, I'm always scheming.

God, why is this game the boring one.

RC, ask RC who we should pressure.

Ok thanks mastina

definitely

being a town asset using 7 year old games.

You seem interestingly sure that mastina is town. Care to comment?

This scheme sounds more scummy than towny when your stated reasoning was to build a gamestate that actually helps you read people though
If this is like you say it is you're basically controlling the gamestate to get people to this state with the assumption where one of Bitmap and mastina is scum
And it it's not like you say it is then you're reimagining the gamestate to some other thing that you think is beneficial
and I don't really like either of those implications

[jjh927]

Though as an aside I really wanna just tell Jingle my 123 thing and nobody else but there's no way of doing that

[Bitmap]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

Because you have RC trying to make sure you win it?

No RC doesn't care.

[mastina]

Though as an aside I really wanna just tell Jingle my 123 thing and nobody else but there's no way of doing that

I mean if you were a neighborizer it'd be quite easy to accomplish something like that but oh well, roles be what roles be so presumably you're not one and thus can't.

[jjh927]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

Because you have RC trying to make sure you win it?

No RC doesn't care.

But the thing where you said the game was stressful to you was a followup to talking about what it's like playing with RC? I thought you were saying that RC was partially or primarily the cause of the stress in some way

[jjh927]

Though as an aside I really wanna just tell Jingle my 123 thing and nobody else but there's no way of doing that

I mean if you were a neighborizer it'd be quite easy to accomplish something like that but oh well, roles be what roles be so presumably you're not one and thus can't.

If I was a neighbouriser I wouldn't have this little dilemma, see

[Bitmap]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

Because you have RC trying to make sure you win it?

No RC doesn't care.

But the thing where you said the game was stressful to you was a followup to talking about what it's like playing with RC? I thought you were saying that RC was partially or primarily the cause of the stress in some way