White Flag - TM2020

[Dannflor]

Sure, you can consider it as such. What do you make of it?
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I was curious because I had mixed feelings on FF at the time, still do tbh. And I wanted to know if you scum read him, what the reasons for that were.

Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?

I've quoted a few, but it's hard to provide concrete examples of something that's missing.
Do you not get the same impression looking at his engagements with other slots - that he's not making an attempt to sort them through the engagements?

Honestly? I remember liking the brief interaction I had with him, but looking back it's a lot more lacking than I though.

@Cephrir, you mentioned thinking I was towny as scum and scummy as town. Does that mean you think I'm "towny" this game? What are your feelings on me now/have they changed since you were voting me?

I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.

also unrelated and I know Cephrir is a strong scum player, but I sort of have a hard time seeing a post like this coming from scum in his position

@Auro, can you explain you hop from Ceph to Dong and back again? Specifically, what's your read on Dong right now and how scummy do you find him compared to Ceph?

[Dannflor]

It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.

I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you? That's not usually something that comes to mind as town this early game when most of the content is without weight.

I was tired and wrote this the wrong way round. Why are you mulling over others thinking they'd think you're pocketing someone else? As town behaviour it's a bit odd but as scum behaviour it would be paranoia. Particularly early game who really thinks someone else is going to be actively pocketing?

I care too much about what people think of me. That's a character flaw, not alignment indicative.

[Dannflor]

my current working townblock is {dunn, kittymo, wgeurts}

I see the other two but why wgeurts

[Dannflor]

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

I neither have nor need any.

like yeah you can read this as "scum afraid to engage," but it's really not hard for scum to engage and just bullshit towny stuff

I don't think this makes Ceph town alone but it's not a reason to scum read him

[Dannflor]

And I really don't like that vote on Cephrir immediately after from Dongempire

VOTE: Dongempire

[Dannflor]

It reads like scum who sees something town does that looks really scummy on a surface level and thinks it's a safe vote, when in actuality if they were town they would've taken more time to consider why scum!Cephrir would behave this way

also Dongempire I'm not really seeing your scum read on Cephrir here, like why it exists beyond "his posts are bad"

he's one person posting one-liners in a sea of walls, but I'm not sure that's inherently scummy?

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir, you mentioned thinking I was towny as scum and scummy as town. Does that mean you think I'm "towny" this game? What are your feelings on me now/have they changed since you were voting me?

I don't think much from you has struck me too strongly either way. I wasnt in love with at least one post about gobbles and myself, but it's not terribly significant. I'm still collecting data.

[Dannflor]

Why's that? I don't remembering playing with any of your team (anytime recently if at all) so I'm assuming not meta?

eddie cane said you were town

I trust his reads a lot

Also, even though I disagreed with it, I thought your explanation for the scum read on kittymo was especially towny. I thought it showed a level of looking deeper when it's a lot easier to just give her a free town read for having pleasant posts.

[Dannflor]

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

I just like a friendly guy yknow

[Auro]

It reads like scum who sees something town does that looks really scummy on a surface level and thinks it's a safe vote, when in actuality if they were town they would've taken more time to consider why scum!Cephrir would behave this way

Do you get the same vibes from me?
I know it's not hard for scum to engage and bullshit, but still, the lack of meaningful engagement is a good enough reason to scumread someone, no?

I made an aggressive attack at Dong primarily to see his response. I'm not sure that's a line of attack scum would take against me ("playing it incredibly safe"), and his response in 201 seemed to set things in additional context. I felt his thoughts were genuine, and I liked his reaching out to work together - where scum in that position could easily continue to attack.

[Dannflor]

I feel like your level of engagement with Cephrir has been a lot more thorough than Dong's, and from what I gather I think your scum read goes deeper than just vague statements about his posting. I still disagree with your read overall but I think the way you've approached it is a lot townier than the way he has.

To clarify, you're town reading Dongempire now?

[Auro]

No, I forgot to mention - I don't have any read on Dong yet, maybe a mild townlean. I've played with him once before, I think I'll get a better hold of his alignment further into the game.

[KittyMo]

This is I guess a prod dodge shaped post in that I am in too bad of a headspace to dig into this game as much as I ideally would be. I guess I'll give a team update since it's something I'd like to hear about from other players. I have two teammates that aren't prioritizing this game at the moment and I don't think have even opened this thread. Gammagooey read some last night and gave a townlean on Dongempire and scumleans on Formerfish and Dunnstral with ~no reasoning, plus some generic meta commentary on a couple of people for future reference that I'm not going to share. I'm basically just riding solo until team priorities change. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This post is weird when you posted this earlier:

What makes it weird?

First you posted the following:

1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire.

I think that the above response implies a disdain for these types of players.
A short while later, replying to something else, you post the following:

I'm just tired of being the day 1 lynch. It's been like 6 games now and its uber frustrating because I would say I am above 60% for catching scum but it doesn't matter people just do not understand me and kill me.

Which is you thinking highly of yourself, which is a sort of lack of self awareness. And that's weird.

I can't tell if you actually think this is scummy or this is just a point where you're not getting his mindset and are kinda just looking into it, but the way it's presented seems like more of a "gotcha" than I think it deserves to be. You can wait til he comes back or not to talk about it more, it just is something I want to discuss.

[Joan of Arc]

VOTE: gobble

[Auro]

NSG, why are you so disengaged with the game? Is it out-of-game reasons?

[Espeonage]

So just skimming this page alone. idgaf if it's prevalent in other games, but here, I don't want to see any of this attacking with x reason because y teammate said so. It removes accountability, the teammate is able to read from a neutral perspective, and therefore muddies the entirety of the game.

Bounce ideas of them sure, but play your game, don't be a conduit for someone to just play four games.

Vote: Auro

[Auro]

Vote: Auro

This was from skimming this page alone, or part of your promised effort, or just wagons?

[Espeonage]

I posted looking at the previous page. Realised I hadn't refreshed. Page 10

[Espeonage]

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

Didn't was meant to be in Large Theme. Someone on my blacklist was in there so I didn't get put there and our allocations were shuffled and now I'm in one of my least favourite setups commonly played.

[KittyMo]

Correction: My teammate had a town lean on Formerfish. I misread.

I must say I'm loving this game - less spam, a lot of walls, a slower pace

Yes, Gobble did replace into both of those scumgames perhaps, but the tone is still very different. Even with some amount of early game content Gobble's tone has remained the same; so I'm not interested in any attacks there. Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

I'm liking Dann more now, specifically that he had TW giving him insights and the explanation didn't seem post-hoc-fabricated.

[Snip]

Regarding cancel food and meta: it sounds to me like you believe the worst had this reasoning to begin with. Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?

Spoiler: gobble and meta and minus points to Dunnstral

VOTE: auro

?

VOTE: FormerFish[/quote]

Dunnstral, the difference in those conditions is irrelevant.

I admit I've just skimmed, but see for yourself - he's very directed in his posts in that game, and mildly aggressive. It feels like a stark contrast from this game, where there's clearly enough content to start making pushes but he's on the fence, with no aggression. It's reasonable to infer that he'd carry the same general mindset at game start, which would reflect as forced pushes.

The biggest variable in tone is alignment, especially for someone who hasn't played many scumgames. I don't think the other variables matter much.

I haven't had a look at his towngame for comparison, I'll do that.

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

quote="In post 243 , Auro"]

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?
Mild on Dunn at that point, no real reads on anyone else at that point AFAIR.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.
Everything is open to change :shrug:[/quote]

The problem imo with not alleging it's a scum tactic is that it's not clear how carefully you're weighing Dunnstral's arguments to try to determine his alignment. Seems like you're kind of hand-waving them to stick with your initial leaning, and criticising him with generic mild minus points for not approaching it exactly the same way you are. I say hand waving because despite it being an extended conversation it doesn't feel like you're trying that hard to develop your thoughts on Dunn/the game through it.

From a theory perspective I take issue with giving people "minus points" for disagreement in and of itself. People are wrong a lot in mafia. Is there something in his rationale that seems especially disingenuous and makes him "continuing" to push scum indicative?

Further, did you follow up yet and look into a town game like you mentioned you wanted?

[KittyMo]

I'm sorry, tags should be fixed this time:

Correction: My teammate had a town lean on Formerfish. I misread.

I must say I'm loving this game - less spam, a lot of walls, a slower pace

Yes, Gobble did replace into both of those scumgames perhaps, but the tone is still very different. Even with some amount of early game content Gobble's tone has remained the same; so I'm not interested in any attacks there. Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

I'm liking Dann more now, specifically that he had TW giving him insights and the explanation didn't seem post-hoc-fabricated.

[Snip]

Regarding cancel food and meta: it sounds to me like you believe the worst had this reasoning to begin with. Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?

Spoiler: gobble and meta and minus points to Dunnstral

Dunnstral, the difference in those conditions is irrelevant.

I admit I've just skimmed, but see for yourself - he's very directed in his posts in that game, and mildly aggressive. It feels like a stark contrast from this game, where there's clearly enough content to start making pushes but he's on the fence, with no aggression. It's reasonable to infer that he'd carry the same general mindset at game start, which would reflect as forced pushes.

The biggest variable in tone is alignment, especially for someone who hasn't played many scumgames. I don't think the other variables matter much.

I haven't had a look at his towngame for comparison, I'll do that.

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?
Mild on Dunn at that point, no real reads on anyone else at that point AFAIR.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.
Everything is open to change :shrug:

The problem imo with not alleging it's a scum tactic is that it's not clear how carefully you're weighing Dunnstral's arguments to try to determine his alignment. Seems like you're kind of hand-waving them to stick with your initial leaning, and criticising him with generic mild minus points for not approaching it exactly the same way you are. I say hand waving because despite it being an extended conversation it doesn't feel like you're trying that hard to develop your thoughts on Dunn/the game through it.

From a theory perspective I take issue with giving people "minus points" for disagreement in and of itself. People are wrong a lot in mafia. Is there something in his rationale that seems especially disingenuous and makes him "continuing" to push scum indicative?

Further, did you follow up yet and look into a town game like you mentioned you wanted?

I will also add that like...something a bit scummy about the handwavey attitude is the focus and rigidity on "I went to this effort and formed this conclusion." Highlighting your effort rather than trying to build on it is more likely to be a feature of fake solving.

[Auro]

Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?

Yes. I think the scenario where Duck makes up a small reason to suspect me and has Damn post it is ess plausible than Duck actually telling him to keep an eye on me, given I find the reasoning provided later genuine. Dann could've just said it and made up a reason post-hoc, but it would've looked fake.

You didn't ask me if I did form thoughts on dunn from that conversation which I did, and it's hardly an "extended" conversation. You'll notice I backed off from pushing Dunn right away.

I'm surprised at how serious people take "minus points" to be. If someone's at 100, and they push me or a townread of mine, that's reason to knock them down to 95. Of course people are wrong in Mafia; it's just ever so likelier that scum might be pushing someone I think is town to my eyes given I don't like the attack. I don't see why "minus points" translates to "especially disingenuous", why are you guys stressing on it this much?

Haven't looked at a town game yet, but I'm not really interested much either at this point. The expected result of my looking there is to end up at a nullread on gobble, and not a scumread. Given I have stronger scumreads, I'm interested in pushing there.

Espeonage, what in the previous page pinged you? Can you go into details please?

[Cephrir]

you guys this game is so boring.

[KittyMo]

So you want to lynch Gobble?
Can you help me see town Cephrir?

Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?

Yes. I think the scenario where Duck makes up a small reason to suspect me and has Damn post it is ess plausible than Duck actually telling him to keep an eye on me, given I find the reasoning provided later genuine. Dann could've just said it and made up a reason post-hoc, but it would've looked fake.

You didn't ask me if I did form thoughts on dunn from that conversation which I did, and it's hardly an "extended" conversation. You'll notice I backed off from pushing Dunn right away.

I'm surprised at how serious people take "minus points" to be. If someone's at 100, and they push me or a townread of mine, that's reason to knock them down to 95. Of course people are wrong in Mafia; it's just ever so likelier that scum might be pushing someone I think is town to my eyes given I don't like the attack. I don't see why "minus points" translates to "especially disingenuous", why are you guys stressing on it this much?

Haven't looked at a town game yet, but I'm not really interested much either at this point. The expected result of my looking there is to end up at a nullread on gobble, and not a scumread. Given I have stronger scumreads, I'm interested in pushing there.

It's not clear to me what your read is on Dunnstral based on the convo or that you intentionally backed off. Do you mind clarifying a bit? My understanding was that your read of him was more or less the same after it, and so I was asking you if there WAS anything seemingly disingenuous about his reasoning. Or if there's anything else you don't like about how he went about it other than he's pushing your townread.

[Espeonage]

So I've found two scum which is enough to win the game. Auro and Dunn are both scum kthxbi