TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[MariaR]

I'll wait for Ank to response to Farkans case, but I have my own opinion on the matter. God, this game has only been going on 4 days? I feel like it's been 10. Play team mafia they said it'll be fun they said. Alright, back to reading whodunit books until my attention is needed again. Maybe I'll get cased that'd be fun.

[Ankamius]

You mean you also feel like people have been having arguments and you're just staring at it going 'what the fuck how did you even get that opinion?' or is that just me. There's been a lot of talk about certain slots like nom gif etc.

Yup that's been my thing all game, mainly with nom

How do you feel about the less talked slots such as DV/Almost50/Goo/Kuri?

DV is hesitantly town, I think he's strong enough to be able to fake thought processes that makes sense
Almost50 seems town unless his scumrange increased in the last few months
Gamma I'm not confident I can read, I think it will be a lot easier after I have enough confident reads elsewhere
Kuri?

How do you feel about the game right now

Like it's well past time for me to retire

and lastly how are you

Idk, I started on more meds last month and stepping back to more positive hobbies instead of toxic ones has helped my mental state

Work sucks dicks as usual

Etc

pedit: Oh boy am I about to read an Ank case how fun.

Ya they're always fun

[Ankamius]

Oh kuribo

He's funny, I want to keep him

[Ankamius]

I've been working from both scum! and town!anka POV when reading your posts. You are not aggressive nor inquisitive, which is usually a scum trait in my experience, but i have seen town players do that so it's nothing decisive.

I'm only aggressive when I'm confident in my own conclusions and find inherent value in pushing them, I'm not going to be aggressive when I'm not expecting any results from what I'm pushing

I had a lot of issues with deathtunneling years back so I'm more careful about what I push and why

[Ankamius]

inquisitive....

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11488919
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11482860

I ask for things when I have something I need from them or think I can get a read from the engagement

I don't ask for engagements otherwise

[chennisden]

Maria is town

This is my read btw

[Ankamius]

You don't look like wanting to take a leading position, and that's usually scummy except for the powerwolf profile which i think wouldn't fit you.

same thing

I need to be confident that I'm right and that I'll be able to get things done before I flip the switch and go aggressive

[davesaz]

I guess we're not reading the same posts then

Generic statements are easy to make. Point to something that's bad and explain why. Extra credit if you're not involved in the post.

[davesaz]

Hmm, Farkran and I do disagree on something that isn't nom. I don't get the Ank push.

[Farkran]

The part I want to know is what examples from dave/chen do you find dif because our reads are exactly the other way around where I see Chenn as ya know, doing things. Compared to Dave who is playing to get an advantage.

I am past scumreading chennis for that particular post we're now talking about, he has pretty much redeemed himself out of internal consistency in his reads and pushes. I do not agree with some, probably most, of his analysis and conclusions, but i no longer see a scum mindset behind them.

However, i'm still townreading dave. I have been since the volpe vs FL debate. I don't see him trying to get an advantage on anyone, actually - i read his posts as being cautious with forming hard reads, perhaps overly so compared to how i play as town, but not in a particularly scummy way since we are only 3 irl days into d1. I do agree that it feels much more time has passed but... it hasn't. Posts 538 and 544 are examples of what i am talking about, i don't see scum trying to sort both slots there - i would expect either siding with the winning side (to push a mislynch), more rarely the losing side (for towncred when it flips), ignoring them or shading both. Depends on player profile.

Posts 878-879 are more examples of the same mindset which i think is towny. There are a lot more. It's nothing that would be impossible to fake as scum, but i also don't know why i should assume the worst case scenario when there are scummier slots out there. To be clear, i am actively trying to be more confident about my townreads in this game to avoid turning it into a paranoia fest. It's a 18p game, it's team mafia, we are averaging 20 pages per irl day. The activity is cool, no need to place unnecessary burdens of proof on townreads rather than scumreads - at least for now.

I see that in your next post you are pretty much getting close to how i view it, so i'm dropping daves for now.

[Ankamius]

A lot of your early posts sound like you try to produce a carefree vibe around your slot, but you are actually concerned about answering stuff, and went out of your way to throw *some* content within your narrative (like that espresso read way back then), or 794, or 808 but it's... weak, as if you felt the need to throw it out without putting any actual weight to it - the only exception being 1255 but even that one is weaker than what i would expect from what in my experience is a town active player. I mean... if you were a lurker, i would be... kinda ok, but you aren't, you say you are putting effort into catching up, you post stuff, but you don't actually say anything. 1268 reinstates the streak of weak posts, and so on.

I was going to respond to this by linking a bunch of my other towngames

but most of my towngames I'm able to get a proper foothold in a lot earlier than this

so

.......shrug

[Ankamius]

that must've been a thing I toned down on at some point

I remember playing like this as town before but it wasn't recently I guess

[Farkran]

I've been working from both scum! and town!anka POV when reading your posts. You are not aggressive nor inquisitive, which is usually a scum trait in my experience, but i have seen town players do that so it's nothing decisive.

I'm only aggressive when I'm confident in my own conclusions and find inherent value in pushing them, I'm not going to be aggressive when I'm not expecting any results from what I'm pushing

I had a lot of issues with deathtunneling years back so I'm more careful about what I push and why

Ok, trying from a different angle: how are you scumhunting in this game? What are you looking for in people's posts to form reads, besides activity and effort?

Because my problem with you now is that i don't see you doing any of that. It is early, but you're feeling way too cautious and you seem to be expecting the game to solve itself, but contrary to a lurker you are also paying enough attention and posting stuff that i see as empty. This is the point of me asking you "why am i wrong?", because surely you don't think your posts are empty... i guess?

Also what's the point of having a readlist that almost coincides with post count? Did you notice it at all?

[Farkran]

Hmm, Farkran and I do disagree on something that isn't nom. I don't get the Ank push.

I also don't get the GIF push, but i have yet to reread his ISO. Why is ank town?

[davesaz]

I understand chenn’s Post and see why those things are interpreted that way but they are the type of things I’d townread that player for. So far anyway the game is young.

Might agree with scumreading others for that

.

What does this even mean?

This bolded sentence? You do poorly in English? It means that I strongly disagreed with that specific post from chenn because whatever chenn was scumreading someone for was something that I think that individual would do as town. Other people posting the same thing might be scummy. It's just as clear as what I wrote. Two people post the same thing, one person it would be scummy another person it wouldn't be.

That’s what I thought, so I just don’t understand why you didn’t expand on this further. Like, I see you asking questions but where’s the follow up? Your thoughts lead one way but I don’t see more to that.

Of course it's generic. Sometimes it helps to be subtle.
"Hey dude did you just chainsaw that guy?" isn't going to get the same kind of answer.

Okay you know what fair enough. I can agree with this. That wasn’t really the impression I was getting at first but, it makes sense.

I suspect FL pretty strongly tbh.

Alright, let’s talk about this then because us going on and off on each other with a debate on a read will probably get nowhere and I’m not gonna be Vope/FL 2.0. FL is someone I don’t have a confident read on right now and since you’re a SR of mine I’d love to hear more about this coming from you.

Huh, that wasn't nearly as awful as I expected going into this

I believe there has been followup discussion related to the first item, not so much about the content I was commenting on but more about the way I made the comment. It may have even been with chenn? In any case the original post was about Farkran (I think??), and I think I still disagree with chenn (and nom) in that the things they're bashing Farkran for are style not alignment.

Another piece of info may help. I play on multiple devices, and notes to myself are how I remember to look back at it. That post served the 2nd purpose of saying "chenn did something important a little before this point" so I can find it again later.

On FL, I don't think I've ever not suspected him. On the rare occasions where I start to write stuff off, he turns out to be scum. The latest development is that he outed his hood with basically no prompting only to say he TRs both of the others, which raises the obvious question what possible town motivation could there be for that?

[DeasVail]

^ above questions may also be addressed at vex vience, deasvail and chennis, actually

I still think nom is scum.

I also don’t agree with the Ank post you quoted being scummy, but if there’s more then I’ll look into it

[Flavor Leaf]

What scum motivation could there be there...? I outed my good which puts suspect on me.

There was clear reasoning as to why I outed the hood. If you straight up read that interaction between Ankamius, it makes sense. I was trying to defend slots that I couldn’t reason without bringing up my thoughts on them as a hood

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, I actively said I was going to tune out from this game for a while, so people pushing that I wasn’t doing anything and talking about smash is trash.

I literally was only mentally out of this for like a day, and I came back in late last night.

[Ankamius]

Last but not least, your readlists. Look at 800 and 1815. Two readlists, one thousand posts in-between, 80 of your posts in-between (ISO#73 vs ISO#155), and the result is... a post count. Look at it. Compare your readlist to this. You are townreading pretty much everyone in the top half.

idk what exactly you're wanting from me

my nomnomnom townread has been stated so many times that there's really no point in going over it again
my volpe townread is basically locktown now after our latest engagement
my read on you is lower than it was but still town; I've even said before that I'm not particularly interested in rethinking this until I have reason to

DeasVail is townish but I acknowledge that what I'm townreading him for is likely within his scumrange... which is why he's in my initial PoE list
Flavor Leaf is a personality tell; I think the way he's been handling the game is from his town chaos mindset rather than his manipulative scum mindset
davesaz is townish because I remember him usually being sortable by what he decides to focus on or respond with; I've liked his takes and haven't seen anything particularly weird with him
Almost50, same; he's awkward as fuck when he's scum and can't chain posts together in a way that makes sense consistently; I've seen no reason to think he hasn't been

Gammagooey I don't know very well, but the other three in that list (MariaR/chennisden/GuyInFreezer) either are players I've played with a decent amount and don't have a proper bead on or have given me little reason to actually town read them... but not really any reason to scumread them either

line below is null line

EP/elements are weak scum

so your issue is basically that I'm townreading everybody that's actually posted pretty much anything this game, which is ironically the slots that I've explained already

[Ankamius]

I've been working from both scum! and town!anka POV when reading your posts. You are not aggressive nor inquisitive, which is usually a scum trait in my experience, but i have seen town players do that so it's nothing decisive.

I'm only aggressive when I'm confident in my own conclusions and find inherent value in pushing them, I'm not going to be aggressive when I'm not expecting any results from what I'm pushing

I had a lot of issues with deathtunneling years back so I'm more careful about what I push and why

Ok, trying from a different angle: how are you scumhunting in this game? What are you looking for in people's posts to form reads, besides activity and effort?

Because my problem with you now is that i don't see you doing any of that. It is early, but you're feeling way too cautious and you seem to be expecting the game to solve itself, but contrary to a lurker you are also paying enough attention and posting stuff that i see as empty. This is the point of me asking you "why am i wrong?", because surely you don't think your posts are empty... i guess?

Also what's the point of having a readlist that almost coincides with post count? Did you notice it at all?

oh

yeah you just don't understand my playstyle

[nomnomnom]

You think Elements is scum Ank? I'm still doubting on that slot.

Convince me.

[Ankamius]

I don't look at what people are doing

I look at WHY they're doing what they're doing

I compare what people are trying to do with what I think scum are trying to do and see if they match

and rinse and repeat with any contradictions until I have a solve I'm comfortable iterating on until I have enough information to reliably solve the game for real

I don't just look at posts and find shit wrong with them unless I'm beyond lost and confused

[Ankamius]

You think Elements is scum Ank? I'm still doubting on that slot.

Convince me.

I'm barely scumreading him

it's basically the awkwardness around how he handled the pressure around him

[davesaz]

Why is ank town?

My comment is more about the type of push and less about having a strong read on Ank.
I don't see anything inherently scummy, and the tone gives a town vibe. It's very weak.
She has enough awareness of the gamestate to show that she's reading, and she's open about it giving her problems.
She's trying to have some conversations. They aren't going very far but I'm not sure about the effect of availability.

The layers in her read list shows that she is differentiating by more than post count. Some of the higher count players are nulltown or null. Putting a high post count player at flat null is a lot more honest IMO than it is to say they have to be either scum or town.

I do agree that having mostly low PC players at the very bottom of the list is a bit suspicious.

[Volpe14]

If Vope did the same thing I probably skipped it cause lol Vope.

What will you do when I flip town?

Volpe I really think you need to drop the paranoid lens you have on this game and come back with a fresh mind. It's clouding your judgement on a few slots I believe.

What do you mean by relevant? Elements does not seem markedly different to me tone or content wise from any previous game I remember. I don't remember if I have seen scum!Elements before. I find other people's reads far more important than what he's done. I don't think it's a useful wagon unless there isn't anything better.

I just think you Volpe and Chennis make mountains on completely asinine things

It's explicitly a waste of time, you didn't miss much