TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn you also did something like this back in Korina's cultafia game, in which you (as cult) tried to weaponize your domino theory against my reads lists.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also

Does town REALLY say "I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?"

Because I've observed that the Mafiascum site culture is to treat your scumreads like human trash. I think it's gross tbh.

By asking him to pretend I'm town, I'm asking him to engage with me in good faith instead of patronizing me with ridiculous arguments.... like you just did with me in the posts addressed in 2324.

[kuribo]

1. What do you think of Vex's point that scum is disincentived from killing all-town hoods? We all know that the survivor powers are really strong, so why would scum want to give all-town hoods the survivor powers? I think it's more likely that scum would want to kill or lynch within scum hoods to gain control of powers.

2. Scum already has wayyy more information than town, as they know some/most of the information on: hood powers, hood survivor powers, hood distribution, and hood flavour. Since the disparity is already so wide, I think the risk posed by your Sitting Ducks example is worth the potential gain of town-wide information.

1. You can't know that, and planning around what someone else might do is a real quick track to the bottom

2. Yes they have information on which groups they themselves are in. Instead of knowing "A B C D E F And G are in different groups from us but we don't know which," they would now know A, D, and G are in one group, etc. So your solution is to give them even more information, got it.

Vote: EspressoPatronum

[EspressoPatronum]

I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?

If there were 5 scums then you already know who the 3 players in the all-town hood are. I did reconsider 4 though and said there may only be 3 scums with lots of power based on a recent game I was in.

I think you might be assuming a max of 1 scum can be in any given hood. I see no reason to believe this yet, so I think drawing inferences from such an assumption is incorrect at the moment.

The thing is Town does NOT benefit AT ALL from outing the distribution of the hoods. Like, what would it change for you -assuming you're town like you requested- to know X, Y & Z are grouped together? Would it make any of them look townier/scummier to you? I don't think it would. It just gives scum a missing part of the puzzle they're not yet privy to. At least that's the way I see it.

By knowing the distribution of hoods, town gains the following two benefits:
1) we can hold survivors accountable for their powers. If players A B C say they're in a hood, and players A B die, we know that any anti-town survivor powers likely came from C. Conversely, we might also be able to determine if C uses the power in a pro-town manner.
2) we get a little closer to catching up with scum's information disparity.

Specifically with #2, the benefits to town might not be immediately apparent, but it's possible more will come to light in the future.

Even further, I argue that outing hood membership (again, not flavour/power/survivor) doesn't hurt town. If it doesn't hurt town and it's possibly beneficial to town, we should do it.

So, basically: You argue that scum already know and I argue they probably don't. You argue that it doesn't hurt the town and I say it doesn't benefit the town.

How does scum not know the information already?

We know they have factional chat, and we can reasonably assume that they got the same type of Role PM that outlines the hood flavour, power, and survivor power.

The only information they don't know is the powers/distribution/survivor power/flavour of all-town hoods. For a more in-depth response to your concern on this specific matter, please see my response to kuribo in

2323

[EspressoPatronum]

1. What do you think of Vex's point that scum is disincentived from killing all-town hoods? We all know that the survivor powers are really strong, so why would scum want to give all-town hoods the survivor powers? I think it's more likely that scum would want to kill or lynch within scum hoods to gain control of powers.

2. Scum already has wayyy more information than town, as they know some/most of the information on: hood powers, hood survivor powers, hood distribution, and hood flavour. Since the disparity is already so wide, I think the risk posed by your Sitting Ducks example is worth the potential gain of town-wide information.

1. You can't know that, and planning around what someone else might do is a real quick track to the bottom

You're right - I don't know that. I asked you what you thought of it and told you why I agreed with it.

Please tell me why you disagree with it.

2. Yes they have information on which groups they themselves are in. Instead of knowing "A B C D E F And G are in different groups from us but we don't know which," they would now know A, D, and G are in one group, etc. So your solution is to give them even more information, got it.

Vote: EspressoPatronum

It honestly feels like you didn't read any of my 'information disparity' section in my earlier wall post.

Like, yeah, there's a small risk in scum getting a solution faster.... but town has a higher chance (imo) to gain more information from this + use it to our benefit.

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn you also did something like this back in Korina's cultafia game, in which you (as cult) tried to weaponize your domino theory against my reads lists.

VOTE: Chenn btw

[kuribo]

I don't read walls I bust balls

For that matter, I don't make cases I eat faces


And I already explained my reasoning: it tells us nothing useful and fills in the blanks for scum

Now, I'm gonna tell you something you don't know--- I'm not trying to convince you why it's a bad idea. I'm not bothering because between this and TEE HEEE I WONDER IF SCUM HAVE A PT, you're somewhere around that mildewy shit in my shower drain in terms of scumminess. I'm trying to explain why it's a real reaaaaaaal anti-town idea to anybody who might be swayed by your wall posts of lame explanation.

[nomnomnom]

VOTE: Chenn

How Chenn act reminds me of how angry he gets as scum. This is within is scumrange.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't read walls I bust balls

For that matter, I don't make cases I eat faces


And I already explained my reasoning: it tells us nothing useful and fills in the blanks for scum
[...]

Lol, so you explained your reasoning but refuse to engage with mine.

Then you voted me.

/shrug

[kuribo]

Because your reasoning is fucking stupid.

And your counterpoint is literally "Okay you're right but what if I'm right"

[kuribo]

Like if you can't understand that scum may already know who isn't in their groups but don't know the distribution of the remaining players or their powers, then you're either dumb or you're full of shit.


And we both know you ain't dumb.

[kuribo]

It's just like "oh does scum even have a PT?" Yes dude it's a game of fucking Mafia, and further it's in the god damn OP.


So you're either dumb or you're full of shit.

And again I know you ain't dumb.

[kuribo]

I may not be able to stop you directly from BUT WHAT IF TOWN TELLS THE SCUM EVERYTHING but I can god damn well kick and scream so you don't Pied Piper the town off a cliff

[nomnomnom]

I'd also like to point out that before any of this Chennis was totally okay with neighborhood discussions yesterday and addressed Dave on his few hood theories and had no reaction to GIF outing our hood, so my belief is that this is fabricated AtE.

[Almost50]

I think you might be assuming a max of 1 scum can be in any given hood.

I am fairly confident of it, and I have my reasons:

1- I was in a game that was close enough to this design recently.
2- Putting 2 scums in a 3-players hood with a "last standing man ability" sounds a bit silly. It's as if the designer wanted to reward scum for busing (or compensate them if one of them got lynched). "Hey, you lost a comrade, so take this ability to compensate for it".
3- Also 2 scums in a hood makes it an all-scum hood in practice. The hood's ability is decided by voting, so scum will always have the majority in said hood (and will never need to kill their town neighbor unless one of them got lynched/vigged)

Consider #3 for the outed abilities: 2 scums would be able to make a 3rd scum (not in their hood) untargetable, or they would make a townie that's likely to vote one of them voteless. See why it's an absurd proposition to have a 2s-1t hood in this setup?

Unless -if course- we are being trolled and there is an all-scum hood + 1 scum in one of the other 5 hoods, in which case your proposition to out the distribution becomes even more destructive to town.

[EspressoPatronum]

Because your reasoning is fucking stupid.

And your counterpoint is literally "Okay you're right but what if I'm right"

I'd like to think we could both be right about some aspects of our arguments, but I will never know bcz you apparently haven't read mine in detail.

I don't think further engagement with you on the matter is going to be productive until you understand my argument, so I'll leave it at that until you read my full argument for outing hoods.

Happy to discuss other aspects of the game with you though.

[kuribo]

I don't think further engagement with you on the matter is going to be productive until you understand my argument

I don't think slamming my head against a wall until I suffer CTE would help anyone here so I'll just have to settle for stringing your scummy ass up

[davesaz]

Does town REALLY say "I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?"

I don't know who you're talking to here, but if I think the person scumreading me is town that's exactly what I try to do.

[chennisden]

I don't think you understand my argument.

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is good, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

[chennisden]

Does town REALLY say "I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?"

I don't know who you're talking to here, but if I think the person scumreading me is town that's exactly what I try to do.

This is all at EP

[chennisden]

Let's say some dude came up to you at a bar and annoyed your friend

So your friend tells you "I should go punch him in the face"

And you go "What the hell man?"

He's like "There's no reason not to punch him in the face"

And you're like "That's not how anything works what the fuck, you can't just take back punching someone in the face, do you get it, IF SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS YOU CANNOT REVERSE IT"

And then you watch your friend punch the guy in the face and it erupts into a bar brawl

[chennisden]

VOTE: Chenn

How Chenn act reminds me of how angry he gets as scum. This is within is scumrange.

I literally think you don't get it at all.

[davesaz]

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is bad, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

Mathematics.

Specifically, suppose there are 6 town that need to be killed to get rid of 2 all-town hoods worth of powers. A,B,C and D,E,F
If scum kill A,B,D,E then C gets 2 nights of last standing and F gets 1 night.
If scum kill A,B,C,... then C gets only 1 night of last standing. It is clearly better for scum to know this split.
It's especially bad if there are scum and a SK, and they double hit on the 2nd night because then there is no last standing night at all.

When you run through various sequences of lynches/kills/night actions, those all-town hoods get more done when they are not outed.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't think you understand my argument.

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is good, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

Lol, I see what you did there. Thumbs up for being clever, but a big thumbs down for the disingenuous attack.

On the one hand, I've written several wall-posts arguing for outing neighbours.

On the other hand, you've done nothing but respond to me with troll posts.

It's disingenuous of you to say I haven't pointed to any convincing reason for my argument while you also refuse to engage with me in good faith. Engage with me and convince me of your point.

[chennisden]

Also if we massclaim

SCUM KNOW WHICH HOODS ARE ALL-TOWN. TOWN DON'T. THIS HELPS SCUM.