White Flag - TM2020

[Formerfish]

go back in your browser to get to it

[Auro]

Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

You still haven't answered this, FF.

[Formerfish]

If you had to bullet point the pushes youve made so far with a elevator pitch on what was going on what would you put?

Thats cause you never responded to this.

[Auro]

Ceph: Lots of disagreements, can get a feel of why he thinks what he is.
Esp: Disingenuous attacks, lack of content - coasting on Auro push.
FF: Wasn't impressed with content prior to the walls, marked for re-evaluation, like the willingness to engage.
Dunn: Passive, find him reasonable, but does that make him town? Idk.
Joan: Agree with Dunn's reasoning on her, at least to make me not want to lynch her right now.
Dann: I want to call his play... political, but I have some reasons to believe he's town, but he's a great scum player as well, argh~ I'll stick to town for now.
NSG: No comments right now, she has to play the game first, but not willing to lynch anyway.
Wgeurts: No thoughts. That first push on inactivity does feel like posturing, but idk.
Dong: I felt his reaction to my push was towny, but I think I should talk to Dann more about this sometime.
KittyMo: I forgot what I thought of this player before.

On a gamestate level my hunch is that there's scum prolly in the lurkers, and not all scum are pushing me / townreading me at the same time. I think scum would find it easy to coast while I drum up pages of content arguing over things which only seems to strengthen the pushes on me.

Was this not a tl;dr of my thoughts at this point and what I think is 'going on'?
What did you want specifically?

[Formerfish]

Ceph: Lots of disagreements, can get a feel of why he thinks what he is.
Esp: Disingenuous attacks, lack of content - coasting on Auro push.
FF: Wasn't impressed with content prior to the walls, marked for re-evaluation, like the willingness to engage.
Dunn: Passive, find him reasonable, but does that make him town? Idk.
Joan: Agree with Dunn's reasoning on her, at least to make me not want to lynch her right now.
Dann: I want to call his play... political, but I have some reasons to believe he's town, but he's a great scum player as well, argh~ I'll stick to town for now.
NSG: No comments right now, she has to play the game first, but not willing to lynch anyway.
Wgeurts: No thoughts. That first push on inactivity does feel like posturing, but idk.
Dong: I felt his reaction to my push was towny, but I think I should talk to Dann more about this sometime.
KittyMo: I forgot what I thought of this player before.

On a gamestate level my hunch is that there's scum prolly in the lurkers, and not all scum are pushing me / townreading me at the same time. I think scum would find it easy to coast while I drum up pages of content arguing over things which only seems to strengthen the pushes on me.

Was this not a tl;dr of my thoughts at this point and what I think is 'going on'?
What did you want specifically?

I took this as more of your reads.

I was looking for what pushes you think youve made that have been substantive.

[Auro]

The attack on me? Cool, let me summarize.

Esp thinks I'm asking questions in a manner as to get out of being scumread, instead of trying to work with people. My push against this was that I always do this, it helps me form reads on people, and I can get people to sheep me if they stop scumreading me.
Cephrir thinks the same, and my defense is the same. He thinks I'm spending 'too much time' on contesting scumreads on me, and my 'defensiveness' is major scummy. My push against this was the same as above.
You think the same, that I'm picking 'small points of contention' and 'magnifying' them, which feels 'forced and fake'. My push against this is again the same; helps me form reads and I do this all the time.

So what's going on? We have three people making the *same* attack which is weakened massively by a very simple look at any of my non-hydra towngames (I'm not as active in hydra games because it's a pain to keep logging in ), and I'm not finding it trivial to distinguish between town thickness and scum disingenuousness.

Pedit: Pushes I made in game so far:
1. Push on FF: For lack of game-advancing content in the then ~30 posts.
2. Push on Dong: More of a reaction test than a proper push.
3. Push on Cephrir: For repeated show of disinterest in the game, unwillingness to meaningfully engage with players, statements he couldn't substantiate ("my teammates scumread Auro")
4. Push on Esp: For coasting on an Auro push with little content about other players, lack of willingness to re-assess based on new evidence, disingenuous arguments.

[KittyMo]

I don't expect I'll fully catch up until I'm off V/LA but I'm gonna get a start on it.

@"caught for the wrong reasons": Read up *any* of my prior town games, and see if you get the same vibe.

@Dunn: Ceph is in your townbloc why..?

@the Joan of Arc point: I think Dunn's reasoning actually makes sense here, and if Gobble's actually scum this would make Joan very likely town to me. However I can also imagine scum!her being coached into naked wagoning and lurking...

RE: the "why didn't you ask me if my read changed" discussion, I think I accidentally deleted your follow-up on it from this post but I feel that we're splitting hairs and no longer really care about that.

If you want people to read your old games get a wiki page.

I may or may not get motivation to dig into meta later. I have so little meta experience on people in this game that I worry that trying to meta dive, particularly early on, is going to actually lead to me forcing things with developing reads or otherwise thinking I'm reducing my biases more than I really am. Or maybe that's just what I tell myself because I probably cbf to read more threads rn. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At the point she voted it wasn't a dying wagon, she simply hopped on the biggest one. I said I agreed with his reasoning at least to not want to lynch her for now, not that I think she's town.

Let's not get this misconstrued. She voted gobble, who had only 1 vote, while 2 other wagons had 2 votes. Dunnstral's take on the blank vote was "Not trying to impede the gobble wagon by arguing semantics or complaining about the game = towny". Which I do think is reading too far into a blank vote, and very clearly from the ~yay gobble vote~ perspective. (Which... the ~yay~ bias arguably corroborates Dunnstral's scumread on gobble being more genuine. lol) I feel like you morph into putting increasingly more stock into pulling stuff from her post the more you bring it up (see above quote for where you used to be at w/ it). My concern being more with the logic than with it necessarily being Deliberate Scum Strats, though I won't rule that out.

Lurking as a scum strat has a much higher negative impact than lurking right now as town, though.

As I see it: the scumteam can afford to lose exactly one of their members, and the more townies they appear obviously unaligned with the more of an uphill climb it is for their remaining teammates. So, specifically being non-interactive/having limited focus is pro-scum behavior. nsg's overall activity level is unlikely to be very alignment indicative, but her lack of attempts at engagement now that the Day is about half over is an orange flag for me. Still waiting for the follow-up on what the scumread she alluded to having on Sunday was (...which is for me why it's notable she left her vote on a townread in wgeurts), and am way more interested in hearing about anything that's actually happening than positing about how supposedly if she was scum, RC would run the slot.

[Auro]

KittyMo, do you want to lynch one of NSG/Joan?

I mean, I do stand by my belief that scum!Gobble would make a case for town!Joan. Where should my read on her be? It's just a smidge above null.

[T-Bone]

Vote Count

Auro - 4

(Cephrir, Hopkirk, Espeonage, Formerfish)

Dongempire - 2

(gobbledygook, Dannflor)

Formerfish - 1

(Dunnstral)

Cephrir - 1

(Dongempire)

gobbledygook - 1

(Joan of Arc)

KittyMo - 1

(wgeurts)

wguerts - 1

(northsidegal)

Dunnstral - 1

(Kittymo)

Not Voting - 1

(Auro)

Activity Check - Replacing Joan of Arc

Deadline: (expired on 2020-01-16 22:59:30)

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to Lynch

[Formerfish]

With Joan getting replaced my zeal for that slots demise has lessened a considerable amount.

[Cephrir]

Ankamius has not read this game yet but I want her to come in soon and be like BAM BOOM GAMESTATE AURO IS TOWN BOOM

because I feel like the gamestate has stalled a long time with Auro as the most pushed player and top wagon and... what is scum doing if he's scum

Lurking, or being you or dunn

[Cephrir]

My point being half the game is basically not here so that seems premature

[Dunnstral]

To provide actual works to answer Dunn's question.

The point I am making is that there is a right way to ask about suspicion on yourself, and just asking and getting ammo on how to fix it and be town read is not the way to do it. That is why I am scum reading Auro. All of the mentality stuff I am reading in Auro's posts reads to me as working out how to be town read not how to convince others of their own reads to work with others. This isn't even town ego either which I would admit is probably townie despite being a shithouse way to play the game that I am a hypocrite for calling out.

The entirety of my reasoning is Auro cares more about being town read than finding scum.

OK, but I still don't think he is trying to do that. I think the thing you are scumreading him for is how he goes about playing as town.

I did though, I think Dann wrote you off as town too fast and was kind of scummy in the posts right before the vote

Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.

This post:

Spoiler:

I honestly do not know what to make of you. I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

Me being skeptical about your methods wasn't me being skeptical about your alignment. I'm town reading you, mostly off tone so it's a very not-strong™ read but something I'm willing to stick with for now. I mainly asked because I was wondering if your questioning produced any readable content for you beyond Cephrir.

I like both that Cephrir went to the effort to case the wooden tone he took issue with and then also didn't want to drag out the discussion needlessly. A lot of the time scum relishes in pointless arguing.

I didn't like how he came in and gave inconclusive reads then townread everyone, it looks scummy to me, and so i thought Cephrir's vote there made sense.

VOTE: gobble

I like this vote about as much as when he voted foe Ceph.

He was townleaning Gobble before this, it seems to be in response to Gobble coming in and not posting anything again

Gobble is the scummiest player at this point in the game.

If you have meta info on scum NSG you should share it, I don't know what you are talking about.

VOTE: Formerfish

Gob is the scummiest player to Dunn. Gob claims to have info on NSG that makes her scum. Dunn votes me while asking his biggest scum read what makes NSG scum. That totally makes sense.

The nsg thing is a totally separate inquiry. He claims to have info that suggests nsg is scum, if so I'd like to hear it, but I'm not sold on voting for nsg just from hearing that. I was fine unvoting gobble, so I moved my vote to you since it seemed like you had a decent chance of being scum; not I don't think so, and reading through your posts makes Dann look bad

I could be getting completely swindled but I dislike the people on FFs wagons and am happy with the wagon I am on.

It seems really super fkn convenient if that's the scum team which means at least one of them is very likely reading this game completely differently to me.

I will say that FF's catch up was eh at best, lots of IIoA inspires not huge confidence.

I liked his catchup + I don't think it was iioa, and I don't like the rest of your post here - I don't think FF town makes Auro scum, if that's what you're implying, I never like when people try to discredit by saying a group of voters is a scum team.

Great, I'm having Masquerade reminder induced PTSD, only difference is i dont have a pt with scum in it trying to go for a captured agency win this game.

That was me, by the way

If it helps, I think I meant to say Dann if I said Dunn. And also I forget why it was so there's that.

Are you talking about the first post where you said Auro and Dunn are scum and I responded with 'ice cold take' and you asked me how that affects the validity? Because that would make a lot of sense.

Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.

I'm gonna be honest, Dunnstral's posts make me want to fall asleep every time I try to read them, but I think this points more towards town. In very general terms, I think scum are a little more aware of their progressions and making sure they make sense or that there's a paper trail.

I think that my posts make sense... not sure what you're talking about here

Dunn: Passive

Maybe it looks that way because the person I was pushing stopped posting for like, 5 days? I'm not being passive though

Yes, and Dunn's reasoning is that for *her* it's more town indicative than scum indicative - if she were scum she'd drum up some opposition to the wagon, etc, wouldn't sheep and lurk away.

Would you want to lynch her, if not me?

I didnt realize that there was a meta read being relied on for Joan, ive never played with her, so im taking the play at face value and im reminded of my first TM in 2015 where i froze after replacing into a teammates game. I could see this being out of someones league and just figuring it out and trying to lurk it out to hide. Its not like shes a pr trying to hide to make it til night to use her ability, we literally have no clue about her whatsoever and no one else seems to care that she is literally less than skating through the day because that would include not getting prodded which she has been.

I don't think i could get enough support for that lynch, but you guys are neck and neck in my book, you win out because theres been more to examine and what ive seen seems scummy to me. What i havent seen from Joan is what my issue is there and that reasoning is less strong in my mind.

I'm not so sure on her but I don't want to lynch her just for doing nothing, in this game, because I want to win. Day 2 or day 3, if she's still doing nothing/hasn't been replaced, we can take a harsher look at her based on information we have, right now though it's a lame lynch

-----

At this point I'm not sure if I want to vote for Dann or not
Based on their play around the Auro wagon probably not, then again Dongempire is also towning Auro but has considerably less reasons, but they're also V/la so my opinion might change again with their next posts.

I don't know, I don't have a strong scumread on anyone right now

UNVOTE: Formerfish

[Dunnstral]

Joan was Yume who is a serial lurker, and I think secret alts are disrespectful in team mafia so I don't feel bad for outting that

[Formerfish]

Joan was Yume who is a serial lurker, and I think secret alts are disrespectful in team mafia so I don't feel bad for outting that

I still don't know who that is...

And when I get to my laptop I'll respond to a few things from your bigger post, I just wanna be able to create my post easier.

[northsidegal]

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

[Auro]

*Sigh*
I mean, the points of contention are that I am scum for XYZ, and it will literally be a hill I die on if they go uncontested
Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

FWIW, if I was scum I wouldn't be active in the way I am right now, I'd just lay low while other wagons happen.

@FF, still unanswered...?

@NSG You've read the game, how about initial impressions at least? Or the scum you "caught" or something pages ago? Like a zero effort post for direction.

[Formerfish]

@FF, still unanswered...?

Broski...

And when I get to my laptop I'll respond to a few things from your bigger post, I just wanna be able to create my post easier.

I legit just said that when I get to a laptop I would respond to things. I haven't responded to things because I hadn't gotten to my laptop yet.

Guess what? I'm on my laptop now! Yay! I started to reply to you at like 530 this morning while we were still on but the words starting blending together in ways that made reading entirely not a thing my brain could do anymore.

Chillax cousin, maybe be this aggressive to the people who aren't posting at all, not just the ones who haven't answered your posed question yet.

[Auro]

Lol sorry about that I read that line as a response to Dunn's wallpost and somehow I had gotten the (wrong) impression you were ignoring my question.

[Formerfish]

Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

Ok, so my first point is where you defended Gobble to the point you took town point away from someone who even dared go and scum read someone you were tring. There is a logical fallacy in there somewhere but I dont know which one specifically. I do know that you are using a chainsaw defense and that is scummy.

I admit I've just skimmed

This is why i feel you should have let it go a lot sooner. You arent an expert on Gobs play, you skimmed two games that have shades of his scum game and are willing to hang someone else because they dont see what you see in a slot when you see it.

I haven't had a look at his towngame for comparison, I'll do that.

You even admit that the sample size you used was limited to the 2 games he provided. Had you dived into his town games prior to going balls deep on the read i might feel differently about this right now.

I've openly attacked FormerFish, Dunnstral, Cephrir; I've hard-defended Gobbledygook in the last few pages, which stances of mine do you find 'incredibly safe'?

This came off lamist and the vote on Dong as a result of your guys misunderstanding or whatever was weak.

195 you respond for Dong to Ceph about his playstyle, i didn't think it was necessary to get involved there. You continue talking about Cephs playstyle in 198. 219 i didnt like how you were inviting the other players outside the game to contribute directly to the reads on you.

Haven't looked at a town game yet, but I'm not really interested much either at this point. The expected result of my looking there is to end up at a nullread on gobble, and not a scumread.

Here is another post where you talk about meta but mention that you wont look at his town games because at the worst he goes back to null for you.

I don't know, independent of her meta tell for being scum, the fact that she left her vote on wgeurts despite naming him as one of her THREE town reads seems pretty bad coming from the Paragon.

Do note that this is Team Mafia: even if she rolled scum, her teammates would readily divert some attention here, no? I can't imagine them taking "lurking" as a scum strategy here...

Lurking as a scum strat has a much higher negative impact than lurking right now as town, though.

VOTE: FormerFish

This felt disingenuous to me too. You talk about how scum wouldnt be lurking, and then vote me who you accuse of lurking when there were like 4 or 5 slots who were less active and had less content at that time as well.

Around the 350's you started in on Espy and i felt like that exchange was forced and silly. (Didn't like Espy calling for you to be modkilled for meta talk)

Sorry this is taking so long, i keep getting distracted by these youtube videos about people buying amazons overstock and returns by the pallet and they are talking fucking crazy shit like buying 4 pallets for 25 bucks total.

[Formerfish]

I'm kinda thinking about getting into the reselling business. I already dabble in it on eBay and have figured out the shipping much better than before so I'm not as intimidated.

[Auro]

Quick response:
1. You have an incorrect understanding of the chainsaw defense. For reference; https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... aw_Defense. Docking a 'few town points' is not remotely equal to calling them 'very probably scum'.
2. Again, did I say I wanted to hang Dunn? Which post of mine remotely implied that? I was simply debating the read. Read the context behind that exchange again?
3. Third time I'm saying this, my vote on Dong was more of a reaction test. My asking Ceph about his teammates' reads was to test if his claim (that his teammates had a read) was bullshit or genuine.
4. Yes, I won't look at meta with priority because the worst-case scenario is the Turkey going to null, which isn't useful, what's wrong with that? What prevents scum!me from actually going through the games and posting some shit?
5. You're misinterpreting 350 too! I wasn't accusing you of lurking! I was talking about NSG. My vote on you was independent of the first statement.
6. Why was it silly on my part?

I think most of your concerns with me are misinterpretations, so... look over the contexts again?

[Formerfish]

I didn't like how he came in and gave inconclusive reads then townread everyone, it looks scummy to me, and so i thought Cephrir's vote there made sense.

Fair, how is Dann hitting you now?

He was townleaning Gobble before this, it seems to be in response to Gobble coming in and not posting anything again

People need to let some questions and gambits marinate in the thread. I think people sometimes jump at everything and dont see how sometimes if they see something they should just shut their mouths and watch what happens as a result of the thing you noticed.

The nsg thing is a totally separate inquiry.

Ok, I just don't often ask people im scumreading why they are scumreading other people.

That was me, by the way

What was you? The scum trying to whisper into my ear?

I'm not so sure on her but I don't want to lynch her just for doing nothing, in this game, because I want to win. Day 2 or day 3, if she's still doing nothing/hasn't been replaced, we can take a harsher look at her based on information we have, right now though it's a lame lynch

I've just seen play from scum recently like that where they legit said nothing and somehow a couple of newbies sniffed her out and we lynched there, that was in the infamous newbie 1942. Again Im a sucker for recency bias.

[Formerfish]

These people got 8 pallets for like less than $100. That shits crazy. I need to find these places...

[Formerfish]

Quick response:
1. You have an incorrect understanding of the chainsaw defense. For reference; https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... aw_Defense. Docking a 'few town points' is not remotely equal to calling them 'very probably scum'.

I don't think im misunderstanding it, "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

This is saying that a player (you) who defends another player (Gob) by attacking the other players (Gob) attacker (Dunn) is very probably scum.

I'm not saying that the points have anything to do with the chainsaw, it is legit calling you scum for attacking Dunn for calling Gob scum.

2. Again, did I say I wanted to hang Dunn? Which post of mine remotely implied that? I was simply debating the read. Read the context behind that exchange again?

For a chainsaw defense you dont have to lynch Dunn, you just have to attack him for attacking Gob.

3. Third time I'm saying this, my vote on Dong was more of a reaction test. My asking Ceph about his teammates' reads was to test if his claim (that his teammates had a read) was bullshit or genuine.

That's fine, ill admit those posts between you two were hard to parse.

4. Yes, I won't look at meta with priority because the worst-case scenario is the Turkey going to null, which isn't useful, what's wrong with that? What prevents scum!me from actually going through the games and posting some shit?

I dunno, I feel like we should be trying to sort everyone and you seem to have arbitrarily tred him and are using that read to base your reads on other people, I feel like thats dangerous on its head.

5. You're misinterpreting 350 too! I wasn't accusing you of lurking! I was talking about NSG. My vote on you was independent of the first statement.

I apologize if I took the comments about lurking personally when I read that in the same post you voted me in.

6. Why was it silly on my part?

Because a lot of what you were saying was like "i do that as anything so you shouldnt scum read me for it" which is like the epitome of caught for the wrong reasons. You feel like you have been able to emulate your town game well enough here that you are taken aback that people might be scumreading you. I just dont see the benefit in using reasoning that has no way ot help us sort you.

I think most of your concerns with me are misinterpretations, so... look over the contexts again?

I guess some of the things get explained away with your added context to your posts, and honestly I have been liking you more since we starting interacting.

If you and I arent the lynch today, I dont think Gob is either, where do we go?