TM2020 | Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime! | Endgame

[Bitmap]

I'll ask her about it now and prioritize posting her response to that.

[jjh927]

Also my Ali townread isn't based on Ali agreeing with me

[Alisae]

I like it how I’m probably going to get some kind of nsg wall and I like how the more she pushes it the bigger she falls when I flip

[Bitmap]

She currently leans town on Kerset but it's a read that she would not have any strong reasons to really convince someone on.

So I would assume she doesn't have that strong of an opinion on Kerset atm.

[jjh927]

I think we'll lynch all the scum before you flip

[jjh927]

Did NSG read 1697 which I just posted

Because I think Kerset's votes with context absolutely scream scum

[hitogoroshi]

RC wants to add something.

He said that him and NSG are here just to lynch scum and not have dank/spicy reads. If you think the read we posted is correct, vote with us.

why does NSG say vote "with us" when your vote is on me who she had no thoughts on either way. It must have been a source of friction, her havin me null when RC has me lockscum and I'm your number 2-3 - so it seems that NSG would be especially keen to notice that you're voting against her suspicions.

The quote clearly states that "RC wants to add something"

Are you truly, truly fucking tell me that RC wanted to add a comment that "NSG and him are here to lynch scum", and that what you should do is vote with 'us' meaning Bitmap and RC and NOT NSG, because you and NSG share no scum reads? RC wanted to extend the olive branch that was also a giant middle finger to NSG because he's saying "if you think the read we posted" [on hito, which was posted ages ago because NSG doesn't have shit to say about hito] "then you should vote with us" [on the hito wagon, which Bitmap gave himself a explicit minimum time on, and implied that that minimum time is the only reason he's on it in 1284]. That's the message that RC wanted to share with the thread?

You think that reundo is scum, but ALSO that Alisae is as well? And you have Alisae and bitmap *together* in the scum tier? who the hell do you think reundo is partners with here?

I feel like this would be town indicative

Why? Haven't you noticed that players are squadding up in blocs based on shared understandings of the gamestate? Like your own snapback on jjh/mastina when you realized that the puzzle didn't work without em both town? here let me drudge up my cohesion tell hits from my last coupla games and you tell me if you think it's the same thing here

[Bitmap]

Did NSG read 1697 which I just posted

Because I think Kerset's votes with context absolutely scream scum

She said it doesn't scream scum to her but rather it screams that you're probably town.

[Bitmap]

Are you truly, truly fucking tell me that RC wanted to add a comment that "NSG and him are here to lynch scum"

yes

[Alisae]

Why? Haven't you noticed that players are squadding up in blocs based on shared understandings of the gamestate? Like your own snapback on jjh/mastina when you realized that the puzzle didn't work without em both town? here let me drudge up my cohesion tell hits from my last coupla games and you tell me if you think it's the same thing here

What’s the scum motivation?

[Bitmap]

@Ali

NSG wanted to know what happened to bitmap being scum or are you trying to scare NSG off?

[Alisae]

The read hasn’t changed

[Bitmap]

The read hasn’t changed

She said why would she feel bad if our slot is scum?

[Alisae]

I didn’t say that at all?

[Alisae]

I just said that the more she pushes it the more bad it looks for her if she succeeds and I flip

[Bitmap]

She wants to know what do you mean by "fall" and what kind?

[Alisae]

The bigger they are the harder they fall

[Alisae]

Am I a dumb dumb and didn’t get my point across

[Bitmap]

Moar NSG posting cause why not
-----

My issue with the scumreads other than Mena is that they're lazy and uncompelling, not so much that they're wrong. I'd be much more interested in hearing more about the reads I think are spicy (Kers/Shadoweh) than the ones that I see as boring though.

Please clarify what you mean by "lazy and uncompelling"? I haven't given you any insight in my reasoning on the reads you mentioned or how they came into fruition. So I would have to think it'd be strange that you thought that my reads themselves were created lazily, or if my reasons were somehow uncompelling before you knew what they were. If you are trying to assume ideas to my reasoning before I've given any of that, you could "guess" what my reasoning was and consider then uncompelling. I would like to say that it would be quite presumptuous and more than a little bit suspicious. I really hope that's not what you're trying to say and I don't really think that is is, though.

With that being said, it has to be something with the people themselves then, no? It seems like I don't really understand your motives here, and the path to winning is not going to be coming out of a super spicy read that's revolutionary and never heard of before. I can't seem to really imagine your thought process so I'm just gonna let you elaborate.

Ali at the time was unmotivated Ali, which is really easy to just say is scum Ali (see: Ali lynch in FotM, a game RC won and NSG modded). Thus, boring. If nsg was saying Ali from the last few pages was scummy, that'd be more spicy.

In my opinion, this is sort of a weak defense of Alisae and also being overly broad. Do you believe that because Alisae is being lazy, that there can be no valid scumreads on eim? Just cause you said this before my substational reasoning to scum read Alisae makes it ring all the more hollow.

(And, to be clear, I think there are reasons to be found for scum!Alisae in both periods of time, both coming from the last few pages of this game and from "unmotivated Alisae".)

You're not wrong that my read on Chem is lazy. I'm just looking at the multiple choice bubbles going "Do I flip a coin or do I hope the asshole to the left actually studied" and going "Eh, at least if the asshole to the left didn't study I'm going to look stupid in a group as opposed to looking stupid alone." It's a slightly less dumb way of not actually bothering to try to improve myself.

Okay, eh, I guess I don't have much of a problem with this.

[Bitmap]

In my opinion, this is sort of a weak defense of Alisae and also being overly broad. Do you believe that because Alisae is being lazy, that there can be no valid scumreads on eim?

Just cause

The fact that you said this before my substational reasoning to scum read Alisae makes it ring all the more hollow.

fixed

[hitogoroshi]

What’s the scum motivation?

it's not about scum motivation, it's about scum process: you're not coming up with ONE mental model about how the game is progressing (because you already know who has what alignment), you're coming up with TWELVE fake reads. So when you want your fake reasons, sometimes you miss that it would have been impossible to legitimately get a TR on that person without at least understanding why they feel such a way about a different read - and it's pretty suspect to just not care about that at all. It's not just disagreeing with your TRs because obviously that happens all the time. The suspicious thing is when people form reads based on a shared COMMON understanding of the gamestate, and then someone picks and chooses parts of it without caring that they've gotta ignore the shit out of their TRs to do it and not trying to close that gap at all. Thanks for Ariel asking me about it in Discord as I was excitedly talking about it because it helped me articulate when it is and isn't relevant.

anyway cephrir and I have had a three game conversation about this and it is funny to post it here. Although in the first game, Accounting Mafia the first time I invoked it I was actually wrong about it: this post is about town

think actually my pick might be shannon? I am sort of getting a personality cult this game of people who agree with my fundamental game vision in you, Accountant, Bork, and shannon. But shannon, after all of the posts agreeing with my version of the gamestate, is voting for Accountant - who is also in the cult and subscribes to mostly the same vision of the game - on, near as I can tell, just this weaksauce reasoning. It seems weird that I would find her vote so incomphrensible when the rest of her posting is largely in line with mine.

and Ceph responded:

who cares? if anything this should be a point in her favor that she's not bloc voting with allies but rather thinking for herself. and i don't even think she's town!

reading back I think that the miss was that I was thinking "it's weird to vote Accountant when you like everyone else who shares the reads he has", but I think it only works specifically if I was hard TR-ing Accountant there which I wasn't. I did a similar argument again that game and got it right; this post is to scum (Accounting Mafia was an awful excruciating game and it took a long time to get that precious W)

Yes? I think you are reading my posts backwards, I'm saying it's weird you're NOT arguing with me. If you've got a pit bull rawr rawr scum read on ETL, BUT I'm your top townread, surely there's some unresolved opportunity there? To figure out why I'm townreading ETL, or to try to make me see the error of my ways, or etc.

so anyway, with that kind of revised understanding, we talked about it again in 17 kilos of cocaine. This post is about scum:

More specifically, it's a little weird how little stock he puts in his townreads town and scum reads. Of course, someone being town doesn't mean they're right, but usually in practice it's at least kind of correlated that you think someone is town based on their reads. But he's got bulbas scum read in town, bulbas town reads in neutral, Bins top scum read in neutral (she's on Elli now but was really vs Ginngie at time of posting)...I guess Spiffeh's reads are stale and despes reads never existed so really it's mostly just Bulba that caught my eye here.

Seems like a playstyle difference. You'll have to excuse it if I do the same thing... wait we've done this conversation before haven't we

LMAO
I was curious enough to look it up and we had a related but not exactly the same conversation. the conversation in accounting mafia was "I find it weird that someone would agree with all of my positions then vote this other player who's kind of a carbon copy of my positions". Whereas this is "I find it weird that someone has these townreads without putting any stock in to what their townreads actually think." But I guess you could disagree with both for the same playstyle reason, yeah.

and then my last game was guns and roses. This post is about scum:

wow damn I really hate this post. LLD has S_S as a scumread but not her top vote, and I have S_S as a townread. but implosion doesn't engage with either of us? It feels like both "try to sell a townread on a wagon they like, but isn't their top" and "try to work out disagreement with townread" are both things you would want to do and I really don't like not seeing either of them. feels very much like voting to be seen voting vs voting to accomplish anything.

I dont by any means think implosion is a shining beacon of townie light but I could see myself doing the things you're criticizing him for, hi to, and for that reason I am not very convinced!

everything old is new again etc. Though I guess making myself go back and review the cohesion tell stuff in more detail makes me think that maaaybe it's not as strong when at least ofrhz's vote is on someone a lot of her townies are voting - the Alisae read is by far the one that's got me concerned the most. and so maybe there's a world where she's just not thinking about it that much, because it's not her actual factual vote? But still, I feel pretty convinced that it should be impossible to have the TRs ofr purported to have, but also an alisae scum read, and feel absolutely no need to work at or even comment on that gulf. Does that make sense? the concern is that the live-action hugbox that just went down ended up with all of you together for a reason, and ofrhz not having *that* reason for her TRs of the-hugbox-crew-but-without-you but neither having *another* reason makes it look a lot more like her reads were cooked up in a lab vs. being generated by someone reading the thread.

[Alisae]

hi

[hitogoroshi]

hi

sry mate I am going to bed in like two minutes

but that's kind of the long and short of it, if you don't think that ofrhz's read list is wacky and fake sounding (and also that she seems way too focused on sounding independent for her reason on reundo), Bitmap/Shadoweh/and yes even reundo because ofrhz's bad post on wagon doesn't preclude bus, any of those four are all cool with me. Just like, at least let's get this one out there and see? Because I was already biased a bit against voting reundo right this second just because of how boring it is and how little it tells us, and when one of the other people I was watching did a really really sketch post to L-2 vote reundo it makes me want it even less.

[Alisae]

You think that reundo is scum, but ALSO that Alisae is as well? And you have Alisae and bitmap *together* in the scum tier? who the hell do you think reundo is partners with here? no thoughts on shadoweh not listening to your reason to unvote me, or me keeping a bead on her so long? Just L-2 on the low-hanging fruit while making it all sound like your own idea.

your tone here suggests to me that you think those reads are bizarre. To me that comes up as a red flag because I don't see as scum why she imploys that strategy when its easier to just put the whole bloc as town

As scum, posting this readlist

jjh, mastina, klick, chemist, mena
shadoweh
hito, kerset
jingle
alisae, bitmap
reundo

is extremely bold. If you're trying to do this move, you would have to suggest why you think that I and Bitmap could be aligned with each other, because the only reason why I feel like you would make a play like this, IS to try to tell the world that you think that all of my interactions with Bitboi are theater.
Thats obviously not their play.
If that's not their play, then why are they doing this?
Wouldn't it be significantly safer to just shove me up with the rest of the townreads? You'll raise way less eyebrows and attract way less attention to yourself.
A read list like this and how they presented it is just a flatout risk with 0 reward and 0 planning.

Now, if they're town and reading each slot individually and posted that post without any real goal, then it makes sense.

Its literally why were wagoning Reundo, his read list is super safe, and comes across as playing to a super crowd.

{Bitmap, Klick} <- TOWN

In this readlist, he sides with Bitmap in the Bitmap vs mastina wars.
If you're siding with Bitmap, then you put him on the top.
Klick is a decent person to add up here, he's not being wagoned anytime soon and atm he's decently townie.

{Jingle, Mena, Chemist} <- TOWN-LEAN

These people are all also fairly townie and not getting wagoned anytime soon

{hito, Alisae, Shadoweh, Kerset} <- NULL

Now these are people who can potentially get wagoned if things go in their favor. You and Shadoweh are fighting and there's no clear indicator of how thats going to turn out, some people think I'm scummy, and people aren't exactly thrilled with Kerset.

{ofrhz, jjh} <- SCUM-LEAN

At the time, this is fairly consensus if you side with Bitmap. I had ofrhz as PoE at the time since remember, I too was also siding with Bitmap, and jjh is also fairly justified here.

{mastina} <- SCUM

And ofc, if you're gonna be in the bitmap camp, then you need to put mastina in the other end.

Also, I want to point out something

Bitmap is at the very top and mastina is at the very bottom.
They're also the first in names in their row.

If you're scum drafting up a readlist to present after having just catched up and analyzed the gamestate, its likely that as he was drafting that readlist, he decided ahead of time "so I'm going to put myself in the bitmap camp which means I need to put mastina at the very bottom" and draft from there.

[Alisae]

hi

sry mate I am going to bed in like two minutes

but that's kind of the long and short of it, if you don't think that ofrhz's read list is wacky and fake sounding (and also that she seems way too focused on sounding independent for her reason on reundo), Bitmap/Shadoweh/and yes even reundo because ofrhz's bad post on wagon doesn't preclude bus, any of those four are all cool with me. Just like, at least let's get this one out there and see? Because I was already biased a bit against voting reundo right this second just because of how boring it is and how little it tells us, and when one of the other people I was watching did a really really sketch post to L-2 vote reundo it makes me want it even less.

I dropped that post because if you were going to stick around, its my way of indicating that I saw it and going to respond to it.