TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[Ankamius]

Ftr my team is starting to get their bearings in this game so I might be prepared to make a move before day end

Watch out for that

[nomnomnom]

Nom I'm still waiting for some people you'd be fine lynching.

Sorry, must have skipped that post

Volpe, DeasVail, Chennis, dave, maybe Gamma.

[Ankamius]

Nom isn't ok lynching me anymore

Is this the apocalypse?

[Gammagooey]

Also UNVOTE: I like DV now

What do you like about his recent posts? It's nice that he has a readslist with reasons now but I don't personally see the individual reads being alignment-indicative of Deas. I like some of his reads but I don't think it's particularly hard for Deas-scum to townread people with some of those reasons being things that would still be genuine coming from Deas-scum.

[nomnomnom]

Nom isn't ok lynching me anymore

Is this the apocalypse?

I don't like gambles.

[Ankamius]

Gambles???

[nomnomnom]

Gambles???

It's hard to get a proper profile out of you this game so I'm not risking a flip on you.

You just feel odd this game.

[MariaR]

Also UNVOTE: I like DV now

What do you like about his recent posts? It's nice that he has a readslist with reasons now but I don't personally see the individual reads being alignment-indicative of Deas. I like some of his reads but I don't think it's particularly hard for Deas-scum to townread people with some of those reasons being things that would still be genuine coming from Deas-scum.

Regardless if Deas is scum or not (and atm I lean no) If he keeps up this level of play it's gonna help get the thread moving again and that helps town. He's also taken a few stances that are against the grain compared to the common read. (Me Ank scum DEB town dave town) although the dave one might be a bit more common you get the idea. Maybe I should look into his reasons a bit more, but that wasn't the main focus on why I'm starting to like him.

[Gammagooey]

What do you like about his recent posts? It's nice that he has a readslist with reasons now but I don't personally see the individual reads being alignment-indicative of Deas. I like some of his reads but I don't think it's particularly hard for Deas-scum to townread people with some of those reasons being things that would still be genuine coming from Deas-scum.

Regardless if Deas is scum or not (and atm I lean no) If he keeps up this level of play it's gonna help get the thread moving again and that helps town. He's also taken a few stances that are against the grain compared to the common read. (Me Ank scum DEB town dave town) although the dave one might be a bit more common you get the idea. Maybe I should look into his reasons a bit more, but that wasn't the main focus on why I'm starting to like him.

cool, thanks - I do think his reach earlier on DEB making more sense as town b/c we're neighbors and were 'arguing' (we weren't) felt like grasping for an actual reason to call DEB town but I can see where you're coming from, and the game could definitely use a 'sane players posse' at this point and including him in it makes sense.

I'ma put down this dumb filler vote for now and be useful and re-vote when I come back tonight, I need to get some real-life shit done for at least an hour and change though.
VOTE: GuyInFreezer

[EspressoPatronum]

We have a few people saying yes to a Gamma lynch and a few others saying maybe to a Gamma lynch.

Maybe there's merit to lynching a person in a lot of the 'maybe' lists because scum doesn't want to catch too much flak if/when that person flips scum. Somebody already mentioned this specifically regarding MariaR's list, but I'd say it could apply generally as well.

At the same time, Gamma's presence in enough 'yes' lynch lists shows that we could get some cooperation on his lynch.

[EspressoPatronum]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

[chennisden]

I agree that things here have sucked and I want to do something about it.

It's about time someone that isn't me wants to do something. The last 3 things you quoted about me: No, they're not helping anything and I'll be the first to admit that. I was just getting annoyed once again. When you see something in your eyes that is a repeating pattern that you want to make stop and have tried to do yet fails it gets to a certain point where you go 'ugh' and that's basically how I was feeling the night before (combined with other things that I have no need to get into)
People I want to lynch aren't really a topic right now, people I think are town are just fighting. I don't feel like this town has any townwork and is trying to help each other solve it's just people getting louder and louder. I can't fix other peoples problems without getting just as loud. That's not my style, even if I can do it.

I'll start it off by saying that I still need to properly review my Espresso read but I think he is town for the weird pushing for everyone to out their neighbourhoods. I agree with you that the neighbourhood outing was a bad idea, but it seems even more unlikely for scum to actively and publicly try and make everyone out themselves.

I get that, but my logic is EP seems very smart and to just come up with an idea that's quite frankly just bad, I don't see how town him comes up with that. His early game was weak to what he admitted too so assuming he was busy because I trust that. I still wouldn't put him as town in my eyes just for such a thing. I'd want to know more about your Dave read, but we can dig into that when you're done catching up.

I'm gonna be honest, it's a stupid thought but to me it feels like the people complaining a lot about how horrible the thread is can be scum in a vacuum, it's an easy way to just dismiss the game.

It is, but the way to look at it is the player who's saying it. If someone thinks the game is 'stupid' or at least trying to give off that type of appearance do you think the player doing it is scum trying to make up an excuse or town who got demotivated? That's the best way to view these card of things.

maria scum (? included) "Ali, is pushing bad lynches scum indicative for Maria"

Alis name hasn't come out of my mouth once this game so where is this coming from? Lack of reading perhaps.

Also UNVOTE: I like DV now

Oh for the record, that was a question CT asked Ali

[MariaR]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

My teammate who read what I originally had typed has told me to be nice. So, instead, let me ask: Do you think my previous grievances are misplaced?

[EspressoPatronum]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

My teammate who read what I originally had typed has told me to be nice. So, instead, let me ask: Do you think my previous grievances are misplaced?

I think they're misplaced insofar as you aren't contributing to finding the solution.

Complaints without suggested solutions don't really do much imo.

[MariaR]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

My teammate who read what I originally had typed has told me to be nice. So, instead, let me ask: Do you think my previous grievances are misplaced?

I think they're misplaced insofar as you aren't contributing to finding the solution.

Complaints without suggested solutions don't really do much imo.

You're saying this like I've done nothing at all to try and fix this. That's just, blatantly false. The 'suggested solution' is to you know, come in and post get the ball rolling. I've openly been trying to do something I really shouldn't have to do in Team Mafia. I at least thought I wouldn't need to teach people basic mafia 101 who sign up to this. 'This game is stale' 'this gamestate is bad' okay you know how we fix this? Come in post and do something about it.

[EspressoPatronum]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

My teammate who read what I originally had typed has told me to be nice. So, instead, let me ask: Do you think my previous grievances are misplaced?

I think they're misplaced insofar as you aren't contributing to finding the solution.

Complaints without suggested solutions don't really do much imo.

You're saying this like I've done nothing at all to try and fix this. That's just, blatantly false.

To be fair to you, you've started some good work in the last few with getting ppl's opinions. It was more directed at your 'woe is me' posts about getting your opinions shut down immediately after you shut down mine. Then you spent a few pages telling everyone how nobody was working together.

Regarding your question though, you asked me if your grievances were misplaced. I maintain that they were misplaced at the time. If you started saying them again right now, then I would agree that you're at least helping to find a solution.

The 'suggested solution' is to you know, come in and post get the ball rolling. I've openly been trying to do something I really shouldn't have to do in Team Mafia. I at least thought I wouldn't need to teach people basic mafia 101 who sign up to this. 'This game is stale' 'this gamestate is bad' okay you know how we fix this? Come in post and do something about it.

Just because it's site culture to complain about gamestate doesn't necessarily mean it's productive.

Instead of a blanket complaint about lack of teamwork or a stale gamestate, I would suggest any/all of the following:
1. Ask specific player's their opinions
2. Comb through some ISOs
3. Ask for reads lists
4. Give a reads list
5. Give some new reads

[MariaR]

It was more directed at your 'woe is me' posts about getting your opinions shut down immediately after you shut down mine. Then you spent a few pages telling everyone how nobody was working together.

I shut down your opinion on outting the hoods because it was objectively bad and anti town. Vs my thing that was trying to understand why people townread you. It's not something in the same category. If by 'woe is me' posting you mean the...2 posts? I made saying that my read on you is shut down then that's a bit of an exaggeration when really they were said in a joking manner not the victim manner you're making it out to be.

Then you spent a few pages telling everyone how nobody was working together.

No one has been, at all. This whole day phase has mostly been a mess and people having a few 1v1s. I maintain this stance and it's starting to change ever so slightly? Perfect. At least some content is finally coming out of slots like you and DV.

Just because it's site culture to complain about gamestate doesn't necessarily mean it's productive.

Instead of a blanket complaint about lack of teamwork or a stale gamestate, I would suggest any/all of the following:
1. Ask specific player's their opinions
2. Comb through some ISOs
3. Ask for reads lists
4. Give a reads list
5. Give some new reads

I never said complaining was going to solve the issue it's obviously not going to. I've done 1/3/4 on your list and I'm never going to do 2/5 unless I'm asked. It's not fun or worth the effort for me when I know exactly the reaction I'm going to get from people for doing such a thing. The thing is, one player can't just get things going. You need at least two people to do that in mafia someone has to respond and do something. Like now for example. Do you have any idea on who you'd lynch and why atm?

[chennisden]

@Ank

CT says "not much, I've been mainly skimming ISOs," and she finds it odd she's townreading so many people

[EspressoPatronum]

MariaR - you keep saying outing hood distribution is objectively bad. I have two points of response.

1. I've actually come around to this, per dave's argument. Protecting the distribution of all-town hoods could actually be beneficial to town. Some other impacting factors in this change include:
- I think a non-random distribution of scum in hoods makes more sense than a random distribution.
- I initially agreed with whoever proposed that scum would kill in their own hoods. While I still find this persuasive, I can see why scum would want to kill all-town hoods to limit the amount of time that townies have access to survivor powers.

Now, recalling that the above is a concession with outing hoods from an objective standpoint, I also think:

2. Hood distribution is

no longe objective

. Everyone now knows the distribution of: all 3 commuters, FL/me, and DEB/Gamma/???

Again, I now agree that outing is not the correct play from an objective standpoint. But now consider this: -- if any of the already-outed hoods are one/some of the all-town hoods, then scum has a very good chance of already knowing the member distribution of all-town hoods.

Dave's argument hinged on the fact that scum shooting for all-town A B C D E F (assuming 2 all-town hoods) wouldn't know the correct order to kill to limit the survivor power. As dave demonstrated, it's possible for town to have longer access to survivor powers if scum doesn't kill all of one all-town hood before moving to the other. For example, if A B C and D E F are in hoods, it's better for scum to kill A, D, B, C, E, F to give each hood only 1 night of survivor powers, opposed to 1 hood with 2 nights and the other hood with 1 night.

Dave's argument is even more compelling if we have more than 2 all-town hoods, as an imperfect scum kill distribution on the all-town members gets even better for town.

But here's the problem.... If any of the already-outed hoods are all-town, scum now know the distribution of every all-town hood (assuming 2 all-town hoods) or have significantly reduced the pool (assuming 3 all-town hoods).

_____

So to recap, it's not correct from an objective standpoint.... but we're no longer looking at it objectively. The more information that scum knows about hood distribution, the more compelling a mass-claim becomes (NOTE - only limited to member distribution, not other powers and such).

Ask yourself two things:
1. Do you think any of the already outed hoods are all-town?
2. Do you think we have 2 all-town hoods or more?

Depending on your answers to those two questions, you may have to reconsider the merits of outing hood distribution.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah, that's a pretty big wall... but it's kind of important imo.

G2g for a bit.

@MariaR - I'll get to your other stuff later tonight

[MariaR]

Alright, since you put in the time to make that big a wall post I suppose I’m obligated to respond because I’d be pissed if no one answered my walls either.

- I think a non-random distribution of scum in hoods makes more sense than a random distribution.

In a set up like this where information is huge? I agree that it's likely to be non-random. However, we have no way to lock that down so I’m not trying to fall into the trap of xyz hood has to be all town because of abc.

- I initially agreed with whoever proposed that scum would kill in their own hoods. While I still find this persuasive, I can see why scum would want to kill all-town hoods to limit the amount of time that townies have access to survivor powers.

Let’s toss aside the fact that I think NKA is awful and one of the worst tools to use in the first place. Let’s just think for a moment. Obviously, scum want the last stand power in their own hoods whatever that might be. But saying ‘scum are gonna kill in their own hoods’ is such a basic way of thinking. Obviously whoever is killed the remaining members are going to be suspected. You can use that same logic for killing in an all town hood. The hoods were going to be outed at some point that’s common nature but using the line of thinking of scum just wanting to get power is stupid because it’s not like scum can hide it.
The big ticket here was if you don’t know who’s in a hood together and you kill someone down to 1 hood that is town and scum don’t know about it, that's a huge advantage. We gave that away by basically outting hoods left and right so scum can just kill keeping in hoods one at a time so no one gets a last stand power. That was the big mistake.

2. Hood distribution is no longe objective. Everyone now knows the distribution of: all 3 commuters, FL/me, and DEB/Gamma/???

Correct we’re past the point where a lot of stuff is probably known already.

Again, I now agree that outing is not the correct play from an objective standpoint. But now consider this: -- if any of the already-outed hoods are one/some of the all-town hoods, then scum has a very good chance of already knowing the member distribution of all-town hoods.

Alright let me ask you this. While I agree that might be the case. So what? I’m not seeing the benefit of all town knowing who is in hoods unless players of said town are defending slots for hood reasons that they can’t out and I don’t think that’s been the case. Scum still have to play naive about the hoods. Even if scum know all town hoods they don’t know what actions or powers (in some cases) that town has. If we mass claim this doesn’t help us. Are we gonna coordinate our actions? That’s stupid scum can play around that.

(NOTE - only limited to member distribution, not other powers and such).

What does claiming members in what hood are benefit us vs not doing it at all?

1. Do you think any of the already outed hoods are all-town?
2. Do you think we have 2 all-town hoods or more?

What hoods are that? Plus, I don’t think this is a good question to answer right now even if you could probably guess from my reads.
Is this from a setup spec type question or a reads based question?

[EspressoPatronum]

@MariaR Thanks for taking the time to go through that. I'll write up a proper answer to that along with the other stuff tonight. Real quick though:

I raised some benefits of outing in my discussion with A50 I think. I can touch on them again in my actual response, but the major one imo is the ability to hold people accountable for survivor power usage.

Re your last point - I meant from a setup perspective, but I suppose a reads-based perspective also works. Your choice.

[Dr Easy Bake]

@Dr Easy Bake:

What is Titus' and Mathblade's read on A50?

First off, are*
Soooooo, Titus has been sick for a minute so you’ll have to wait for her reads. Math made reads A50 as town. A50 was more vocal when they played against MathBlade last time and they don’t see that here. It’s possible that A50 is scum, that world exists, but it means the wagons would be all one alignment making the vox destructive. MathBlade says that the mod kill makes it hard to get a grasp on the game, and we should look at who Farkran suspected. They agree with Farkran that all of the fighting D1 couldn’t have been ALL TvT. The VCs are too dispersed and no one takes NKA seriously. They would push Ank or Nom because of post 1937. The fact that those wagons haven’t taken off are weird, the whole game is weird. Nom’s response is like a scum claim since they’re going like “everything is going bad so why fix it?” The game needs a morale boost and fast. They’ve been working with me but I am discouraged because of my lack of vote. If MathBlade is right and A50 is town, the game reads like a discouraged quagmire, and needs halp.

That’s the end of all the shit Math wanted me to say. They talk so gahdamn much in discord, that was annoying to have to type out on mobile. Smh

[davesaz]

Catching up from bottom of 105.
Leaving to take my daughter to the airport before 5am yesterday really messed me up sleep wise, and I did some non-MS things to clear my head.

[Almost50]

Let's take a closer look on some slots (and -of course- skitter is helping a LOT with meta reads):

Volxen is SCUM

: According to skitter; Scum!Volxen pops in and makes tangentially related posts that really have very little to do with the meat of the game. He doesn't really know how to keep up or engage in real time or like follow-through with anything.

Town!him doesn't do that, and he's doing just that in this game.

EP is still a TR for skitter (I still hard disagree, nut I've got to be a team player and -at least- convey the message).

Volpe is still scummy, and she noted that in post #249 Elements naked voted Volpe, and Volpe immediately started pocketing Elements (#250 & #253). Elements appears to be pocketed in #255 and is asking Volpe whom to vote for, but instead of leading; Volpe waits for Elements to vote Farkran (#262) to immediately sheep (#264). and proceed to make Elements his top TR (#265)

Accordingly, I am going to park my vote on Volxen for todaym as he;s the one both I and skitter do agree on. EP I SR and she TRs, and Volpe she SRs and I have a Town lean on still.

Catching up slowly as we speak (really slow internet here now. Almost as slow as the dial-up connection used to be)