White Flag - TM2020

[CheekyTeeky]

Dong and Espe feel lynch baity to me.

[CheekyTeeky]

Gobbles how do your reads look atm?

[CheekyTeeky]

VOTE: BBmolla

[Formerfish]

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro I don't get why he cares so much about trying to bring in Auro meta.

Meta works in two ways.

1. Auro does X as scum and never as town, he must be scum (or) Auro does X as town and not as scum, he must be town
2. X is an invalid reason to scumread Auro because I've noticed it in his towngames

You don't need to be good at reading Auro to make the second point.

This is a bad argument.

If you do something 300 times as scum and 1 time as town, should we not lynch you the 302 time you do something because one time out of the previous 301 times you did that you were town?

The argument that "I know that's scummy, but I do it as town too!" Doesn't mean you shouldn't get lynched here, it means that the players in the other games where you played scummy should have lynched you to change your behavior.

[Formerfish]

weakness

This is the 2nd time youre mentioning a weak player list and it's hard to not be a little offended.

Do you think your mafia prowess is being wasted amongst us plebians?

[Espeonage]

It's more a question of trust.

I have no trust in the other players in this game, so I feel a bit man against the world bc I don't feel comfortable bouncing ideas off anyone here so I'm trying to brute force. Look I'm happy to be proven wrong but at the moment.

[Cephrir]

I don't know how you got comfortable doing that with anyone if your strategy for people you don't know is to not talk to them

[Espeonage]

Like it was reinforced early by Auro's complete stubbornness to see how he is not helping at all while other people defended it as a viable course of action. It doesn't even matter if Auro is town or scum, what matters is that it is frankly unacceptable to get repeated requests from multiple people to rethink what they are doing.

The fact that it is still not resolve drained any meagre optimism I might have had about the game.

To answer your question, wasted? no. Is this game feeling more and more like smashing my head against a wall that should have come down ages ago? god yes.

[Espeonage]

I don't know how you got comfortable doing that with anyone if your strategy for people you don't know is to not talk to them

Because they usually display a willingness to work with others with regularity.

I would expect a normal trajectory of a game to be a bunch of people fluid about how they are looking at things with the odd vehemence that creates discussion where people can engage in a discourse and maybe adapt their reads.

So far this game I have seen two schools of thought at bitter odds, everyone giving up and turning on someone in the corner bc it is easier than admitting that there is eve a slim possibility of being wrong.

The cruel twist is that there is one to two people who have exhibited that, and they are both people in the scummier half of the playerlist which is really screwing with my brain as well.

[CheekyTeeky]

It's more a question of trust.

I have no trust in the other players in this game, so I feel a bit man against the world bc I don't feel comfortable bouncing ideas off anyone here so I'm trying to brute force. Look I'm happy to be proven wrong but at the moment.

Could you not also read the response to the idea you're bouncing to determine your level of "trust"

Seems like a really silly strategy tbh as you're shutting down opportunities for reads both ways.

[CheekyTeeky]

I have one member of my team still scumreading Auro so we're open to any cases there for consideration.

[Cephrir]

Idk I feel like no one else is frustrated and I don't get it

[Espeonage]

I presented hypotheses on situations I could see myself be wrong based on wagon stuff and asked about how that might colour reads not he rest of the playerlist and it was picked up with an offhand comment by you and dan and then dropped.

It was a concerted effort to start a discourse on where and why I would be wrong in my reads up to that point and was presented with a severe lack of engagement with it.

[Espeonage]

I am uncharacteristically angry at this entire playerlist and setup which isn't helping.

My main quips with the setup were even confirmed like a page ago so whatever.

[CheekyTeeky]

I'm sorry if I'm displaying a severe lack of engagement to anyone's ideas. I'm pretty fixated on FF scum and need help seeing where I'm going wrong if that's the case before being able to see Auro scum (due to FFs hop onto the wagon.)

[CheekyTeeky]

I think Dann strong manning people off the Auro wagon by discrediting the reads was also an influence for me and why I would see those two as SvS should Auro flip scum at some stage.

[Espeonage]

My main qualm with FF is that there is small amounts of analysis, but there's a lot of words that say nothing as well.

That said I can see that being a pit fall of intermittent catchups as well so I'm not super keen on voting there any time soon.

[Espeonage]

I think Dann strong manning people off the Auro wagon by discrediting the reads was also an influence for me and why I would see those two as SvS should Auro flip scum at some stage.

Do you see any credibility to the line that Dann is possibly white knighting Auro given the amount of focus that has been on both that wagon and counterwagons? Like it's not really something that comes in to play until later days but that's my reaction there if Auro flipped town at some point.

I wouldn't fight tooth and nail by any stretch of the imagination if Dann flipped scum first. I'd still be down for Auro.

Like as much as I hate hate hate pre flip associatives that point is moot when every option leads to the same conclusion. I want to answer if I am confbiasing on it all though.

[BBmolla]

VOTE: BBmolla

Wow so brave

How do you feel okay making such awful votes

[CheekyTeeky]

Do you see any credibility to the line that Dann is possibly white knighting Auro given the amount of focus that has been on both that wagon and counterwagons?

I could see that based on how strong Dann townread Auro early on. If Dann was WKing then I'd say that's to keep Auro for lynches down the line/possibly lylo rather than a pocketing attempt. I still think a chainsaw defense would be the bigger payoff for scum!Dann.

If Auro flipped town I wouldn't go straight after Dann though and think it's important to consider his play overall rather than associatives with a scumread. Dann has been pushing and probing in a townesque direction and his stances are understandable so I'm comfortable putting him in the town basket for today.

Auro could be doing a lot more.

[CheekyTeeky]

VOTE: BBmolla

Wow so brave

How do you feel okay making such awful votes

Are all my votes awful? Why?

[BBmolla]

well this one is awful so I assume the rest are

[BBmolla]

I didn't look tbh

[CheekyTeeky]

well this one is awful so I assume the rest are

I didn't look tbh

Why is it awful? Should I be hard town reading you now? I find your aggression to be a little over the top, it doesn't read as genuine to me.

Dong is scummy sure but what are your other reads?

[KittyMo]

Spoiler:

Fuck I lost a huge post.

Basically I had this big thing that there's probably 1 and maybe 2 scum in the lurkers because of wagon reasons and it ended in me asking for cliff notes on the lurkers from Hopkirk and Auro and my mirroring some points Ceph made.

I see the opposite as true if Auro flips scum in that it implicates Dann and if he's town that implicates Espeon.

What advantage would Dann have in pocketing Auro?

Auro is argumentative and vocal. Both strong qualities in someone town reading you.

My breakdown is that I doubt the entire scum team would jump on to a wagon all together, which is why I would not expect a prominent three person wagon to contain more than 1 or 2 scum.

Are these the posts you think you asked for feedback on your hypotheses on?

Personally I feel pretty frustrated with you based on our communication prior to the game never reaching resolution, the fact that you purportedly have a gut read on me based on skimming my posts (that I acknowledge are long, but I did organize intentionally) and the extent to which you're talking down to everyone. I'm getting that off my chest partly because I'm worried my reads are starting to increasingly overlap with likeability and idk, I'm not enjoying being annoyed with you. I do think you should consider that you may be creating a self fulfilling prophecy with regards to not being able to bounce ideas though.

I had been thinking Dann and Auro were below chance of being aligned, solely based on things on Dann's end that don't really fit the model of past scum defenses of partners I've thus encountered. Dann's liking of Auro is an axiom for him, but he's neither ... weaponizing it or justifying it to the degree I would expect? Somewhat independently of the associative read, it's ...funny to me that Dann keeps narrating that he just loves Auro and wants to figure out who's pushing Auro disingenuously without asking that many specific questions surrounding suspicion of Auro. Like I guess that comes off as higher % LAMIST concern w/r/t Dann than a concern for buddies.