White Flag - TM2020

[Dunnstral]

FF is probably town.

VOTE: formerfish

i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum.

The way nsg pops in here, puts down the vote, and then ducks out doesn't strike me as likely to be SvS. Especially the wording of this post, "i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum," she's careful to not even express a scum read on FF. It would be a very strange bus if it was one.

Unless NSG didn't want us to sheep the FF vote, which we would've if she actually cased. Instead, lay a naked vote, and have the third scum try to distract to an entirely new wagon...
Like Dunn->Gobble :D

Sorry for the tinfoil lol

That's not even how events went down though, I pressed NSG on not joining the gobble wagon and then voted her and said I was less sure on gobble

I did some research: nsg never posted in the timeframa that bbmolla was at l-1 for, so she wouldn't be around to quickhammer

[Espeonage]

eddie has commented that your attitude of hating this game/playerlist/life/universe all of D1 makes a lot more sense if you rolled scum with NSG

Nah. I hate white flag bc it's a terrible setup to be town in not because it's terrible to be scum in. I believe I argued it was mountainous with extra stuff for scum and everyone went you're an idiot.

I'm actually mad bc one of the only players I absolutely hate with a passion signed up for the large theme and bc it was at the bottom of our priority list (bc it's the biggest playlist) I got shunted to this god forsaken setup.

I mellowed out after Kitty called me out for being antisocial bc I actually feel really bad for being a dick out of game to her.

[Dunnstral]

When night fell I told my team the nightkill would be either me, Dann, or Kitty - this kill isn't a surprise at all, and Kitty was never going to be lynched in this game

I didn't read up. I can't now either and no idea when I'll be able to next week due to work.

I've seen the lynch. I've lost all respect for NSG as a player. I've lost the respect that I had for RC as a player. I've discussed it with the team- people who've discussed irl how they like RC - and everyone seems to share this view.

I'm especially irritated as this clearly was only allowed due to reputation. A new player in that slot with an 7 day period without content would have been subbed out. When it's clearly strategic since she was playing elsewhere in TM I'm pissed that it was actually allowed and would have been disgusted if she was pulling that as my teammate.

Quoting my post end gimmick because fuck this game.

What did she do that makes you so upset at her?

I mean, I'm a little miffed that the mods didn't respect the rule that says that NSG should have been replaced and her team penalized when it happened, and that could have changed the course of the game because they then counted her vote on FF, but that's not her fault since they allowed that to happen

I think people pushing Dunn is towny but I'm not ready to look into that slot yet.

Cephrir I think you're town. I'll do a more in-depth post soon. I think I was at Hopkirk/Dong with a side serving of Dunn.

Unfortunately, this means that the FF/Dunn team I was dreaming of isn't likely to be a thing. Not impossible, but also unlikely.

Unless NSG didn't want us to sheep the FF vote, which we would've if she actually cased. Instead, lay a naked vote, and have the third scum try to distract to an entirely new wagon...
Like Dunn->Gobble

Sorry for the tinfoil lol

Is this what we're doing today?

[Espeonage]

The point of your response was to argue that I didn't have a single logical explanation for voting FF over NSG

I don't think I ever said this? Please quote it if I did.

Look, I understand where you're coming from with lurkers being bad lynches. I don't think I ever said that logic specifically is incorrect. However, I disagreed with the way you used it to defend NSG originally because yes! a scum tell that usually fits her scum meta does raise her scum equity!

I am not ever going to let a meta based case sway me. I have too frequently seen this kind of shit abused including by myself. Ask Ducky if I am ever going to believe a meta argument? There is NO person's meta I would accept as the basis of a read and if anyone has any respect for anyone else's skill ceiling they wouldn't either.

even if it's wrong sometimes. You not entertaining that point and using the often repeated logic of needing a high information lynch D1 felt disingenuous to me.

And you would be wrong. Not using meta EVER is a hill I will die on

I agreed later because I'd felt my reasons for NSG scum had lessened and FF had become a much spicier lynch, but I digress. This feels like a semantics or language issue we're having because I thought I was always very clear it was the way you originally used that defense I took issue with. We were wagoning NSG and you popped in with "lurkers are bad lynches," which is not bad logic in theory, but felt like a LAMISTY attempt to discredit the wagon on her without even considering the valid point raised against her.

There was never a valid point raised on her. And when no one was even listening to my argument against lynching her, I explained the behind the scenes thinking for this exact stance and you agreed with it. They are the exact same argument, one is a one liner, the other is a four liner

I don't think I ever said you never had a reason to vote FF over NSG. That would in fact be very hypocritical. My issue with you has to do with the fact that you did (and are still) dismissing the issues with NSG as nothing, even though they were valid reasons to scum read her. Like your point about meta tells sometimes being different otherwise they would be a trust tell is silly because the logical conclusion to that as a dismissal is that we just shouldn't use meta at all.

See above. The hill I will die on. I am CERTAIN that there are people that will never ever use meta to defend or incriminate me because of how perfectly I can fake my scum game as town and how perfectly I can fake my town game as scum and I am not even close to being one of the best players at doing this.

You were treating NSG like any other lurker and boiling it down to "lurking lynches bad." Even though the case was deeper than that. There was a reason NSG got wagoned over another lurker like Dong.

I didn't agree with the reasons. Also people wanted to Lynch dong all day anyway.

Responses in bold.

[Dunnstral]

Thinking about Gobble and the wagon on NSG and not knowing where the scum actually would be in that scenario unless they were doing literally nothing the entire day.

I assumed I had time to vote around a bit and intended to follow up after I caught up.

I still don't understand why you voted for me, can you expand on this

Dong feels town because of his attacks D2, there's no agenda - will check if he's the kinda scum player who plans their attacks. Also, I think KittyMo NK would've been from someone familiar with her.

What are you talking about? What are the towny attacks you speak of

[Dunnstral]

I don't want to lynch Dannflor, Formerfish, Cephrir, bbmolla, CheekyTeeky, gobbledygook, or Auro today by the way, for various reasons

Which leaves Hopkirk, Espeonage, and DongEmpire

VOTE: DongEmpire

[Dunnstral]

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

My team told me this was a scum post if nsg flipped scum, before she flipped scum

Now I'm looking at your day 2 play and I don't like it, and I think you're scummier than Espeonage/Hopkirk

[Auro]

That's not a scum post, that's a Dong post.

[Dunnstral]

Espeonage I don't think you were correct in saying that we have no information to work with today after an NSG scum flip. I certainly don't feel like I'd be in a better position if we lynched FF and he flipped town

[CheekyTeeky]

Why Dong over Hop today?

[Dunnstral]

That's not a scum post, that's a Dong post.

Please explain

[Dunnstral]

Why Dong over Hop today?

Some of the things Hopkirk/Espeonage are saying, or rather the way they're going about the game, makes me feel less confident about voting there. I think Dongempire is a pretty good shot at hitting scum. do you disagree?

[CheekyTeeky]

I agree that Dong is scummy but that hammer makes me hesitant. Hopkirk needs to explain his thought process more, I'm not sure that what he's said today has made him any less scummy from my pov.

[CheekyTeeky]

FF do something with your life before I start tunnelling you again.

[Auro]

It sucks and she's doing us a disservice but I don't think that's a good reason to be wagoning her

Dunn, this was an early game post where you recognized she played in other games and not this one, but dismissed it as a legitimate reason to wagon her.

But they also told me that NSG is playing in other games and so she is scum in this game, and I agreed with that, then they basically said "so vote her"

They told you? We already pointed it out in the thread by that time and you had your thoughts formed on it already, that it "sucks and is a disservice" but a "bad reason to wagon".

You said your teammates were shouting at you for a hour to vote NSG and that felt fake.

Your posts seeking an NSG replacement also seem to come from a scum perspective than a town one.

You tried to divert to Gobble during late D1 wagons.

You tested out a BBMolla push too during late D1 wagons.

[CheekyTeeky]

Auro should never be lynched.

[Dunnstral]

Again, my teammates having opinions that differ from what I said earlier in the thread on my own is not a contradiction

I was pushing gobble since before NSG/ff became a thing, so it makes sense that I'd want to go back to that.

You can say I tried to divert the NSG lynch all day but the reality is that we would have lynched FF yesterday if I hadn't fought against it. You'll notice that I started talking about BBmolla well after I tried to get an nsg lynch and it looked like Cheeky/Dann and whoever elseweren't willing to join on that, and we still needed a lynch that preferably wasn't FF who I thought was town

[Dunnstral]

That people who are defending Auro are going yeah ok its anti town, but it's also what he does so he's town.

Auro what you're not comprehending is that NSG was never my priority. I already said that my team told me I needed to either case Gobble or join the NSG wagon if I wanted to save FF - and for my part I did both intermittently

[Auro]

Again, my teammates having opinions that differ from what I said earlier in the thread on my own is not a contradiction

It isn't, but your agreement with them while also disagreeing with the same point made in

this

thread is a contradiction.

I'll stash this push for now, and focus more on Dong/Esp.

[Dunnstral]

That's not a scum post, that's a Dong post.

Please explain

How about this

[Auro]

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26707

Short ISO read, a towngame of his I was in. His somewhat eccentric admonishing of people is present there also.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26707

Here too.

[Cephrir]

Ask Ducky if I am ever going to believe a meta argument?

Isnt this meta though

[Auro]

I'm interested in a holistic case on Dong rather than individual posts that come off scummy.

[Espeonage]

Ask Ducky if I am ever going to believe a meta argument?

Isnt this meta though

NAI

[Espeonage]

As in, I'm not arguing it is scum or town indicative.

I am arguing it is how I fundamentally believe the game works.