White Flag - TM2020

[Cephrir]

I mean you're arguing it's not a valid reason to scumread you, which... is exactly what auro was arguing day 1?

Not that this is important or anything.

[Espeonage]

Hmm... ok I see how you can take that line. Sorry I forgot I was also defending not just casing on Dann lol. Fair enough. Disregard it.

[Dunnstral]

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26707

Short ISO read, a towngame of his I was in. His somewhat eccentric admonishing of people is present there also.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26707

Here too.

I don't get it, what am I looking for that makes 1670 not scummy

[Dunnstral]

I'm interested in a holistic case on Dong rather than individual posts that come off scummy.

Weak posting overall, scumreading people I've been townreading, started to go for FF when nsg picked up, took BBmolla to L-1, only hammered nsg when it became clear that that was what was going to happen

[Dunnstral]

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

Nsg/cheeky/maybe hop

I especially didnt like that nsg was MIA and yet former still said she was making it a 1v1, shes not even here

No one said we cant lynch you today and nsg tomorrowz which is my preferred gamestate as of now.

And their post history shows a pattern of shading NSG/voting for somebody else

[Auro]

There was never a valid point raised on her.

Oh c'mon, she herself admitted before she's a lot more interested in playing town than scum, then spends her time playing her teammate's games (again, by her own admission) and avoiding this one.
Even if you "never believe Meta", this was always a legitimate argument for her scum.

@Dunn can you explain why you found that post scummy?

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn can you explain why you found that post scummy?

My teammate thinks that post is scummy (which is what I said) - I think Dong is voting even if you think that post is NAI, and I don't see that post as town

[Auro]

Lol? I already said that was my suspect list for tomorrow. Today its just you, and i think your fates been sealed

"Shading NSG/voting for someone else" he posted this explaining 1294,1295

[Auro]

Eurgh, I need a computer, will be back laterrr

[Dunnstral]

I think saying he'll vote NSG tomorrow after lynching FF today is scummy - and I truly believe he would have bussed nsg on day 2, after he got his FF mislynch.

Today, he's backing off from FF because he doesn't want to look bad, but that doesn't really match up with what he was saying yesterday.

[Dunnstral]

So yesterday he planned on voting NSG after FF, but today after NSG flips scum he backs off of FF - I think that is for his own survival, and that he is scum

[Dunnstral]

Oh yeah, and his insistence that dong's fate was sealed/the lynch was a forgone conclusion was scummy, especially since he had the ability to change it

[Dunnstral]

*FF's fate

[Donempire]

im shading scum so that makes me scum

wtf

[Donempire]

I will be around today if yall decide to flashwagin

I liked bb at the start but yeah I do think a little fire that fades out quickly has a good chance of being scum

fine

VOTE: bb

I still think nsg is the best lynch but it's fine I guess

northsidegal - 5

(Kittymo, Dunnstral, gobbledygook, BBMolla, Dannflor)

BBmolla - 4

(CheekyTeeky, Cephrir, Formerfish, Dongempire)

Formerfish - 2

(northsidegal, Espeonage)

gobbledygook - 1

(Hopkirk)

Not Voting - 1

(Auro)

I think that's accurate.

We have ~8 hours left.

VOTE: nsg

These tell a pretty clear story

I didn't think I could get her, then switched back when it was pointed put she had more votes than I realized

And this makes you town... how?

If you were planning to bus NSG so that you could point this out later then this makes perfect sense as scumceph. What reason is there to point this out

[Donempire]

Also it literally says you win when scum has been reduced to one member, yet no one is batting an eye to this post:

To expand slightly

Because we already discussed scum turbobus strats for white flag in this game I really dont think scum would look to turbobus in this game, at least until maybe late game when theres only 2 of them

1 scum wins the game

What? It literally doesn't

So, good job on that front team.

[Auro]

Dong... Ceph thought you said "1 scum wins scum the game" when you meant "1 scum wins town the game".

[Dannflor]

I might be ascribing town points to Dong's posts because of Dong™ things and not things that are actually town indicative. Because a lot of it feels too wolfy to be wolfy but if Auro says he's just like this then that might be a bad thing to fall back on.

Espeonage, the only thing I really have to say is that it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in meta as a scum hunting tool. The fact of the matter is there was valid reason to believe NSG's scum equity was higher than other lurkers for the other players in the game. And even if you personally don't subscribe to using meta in mafia it didn't seem like you were even recognizing the concerns people had, instead discrediting them as just-another-lurker-lynch.

[CheekyTeeky]

Dunn I'll vote Dong but I'll BoP you on it. I'm slightly concerned most of us are reaching the same conclusions. It's like we've been infiltrated >.>

[Dunnstral]

im shading scum so that makes me scum

wtf

Shading them but voting someone else

Lynching FF becomes a lot harder if Nsg is lynched first, I'm sure you planned to bus day 2 because Nsg wouldn't be able to show she was town, and because she would have let the maf team know that

Dunn I'll vote Dong but I'll BoP you on it. I'm slightly concerned most of us are reaching the same conclusions. It's like we've been infiltrated >.>

But you agree that he's scummy. Who are 'most of us' - You, Me, and Dann?

Why am I being BoP'd?

[Dannflor]

A Message from Eddie Cane!

(paraphrased to the best of my ability while still trying to maintain the intended effect and meaning)

My reads immediately after seeing NSG red, without rereading the game, were:
Dann, Dunn, Kitty
FF, Cheeky, BB
Auro, Gobble
Hop
Dong
Esp

I have read today, and I don't really think it changes anything. I'll expand on this later.

I was the first pusher for killing NSG in our team. I don't blame you guys for having concerns about Dann on a surface level, but I think it's actually ridiculous to really consider this slot as scum. Look at his wall reads post, look at his EoD acitivity, look at him being part of the momentum back to NSG. It's natural. Is it weird to proxy town case my own teammate? It should be pointed out, however, that both flips have been correct reads from him, and lynching that on day 2 in this setup is nonsense. Also #1436 was the post that spurred momentum back on NSG and this is WF no paranoia lolbus crap. The kill pool I gave Dann was originally nsg > ff > esp > Gob > Dong. Later, I became confident FF and NSG were TvS. I thought they were both independently scummy. The logic was if NSG is scum then FF is a survival vote (especially when there's another wagon on the table), and if NSG is town then that strengthens my own read on FF since I respect her reads. I encouraged Dann to vote within those two. Now, I firmly do not believe FF is scum. It's possible I will regret those words, but I do not feel at all like they were SvS (even despite FF not ending the day on NSG).

Ceph is like, the most obvious town of all towns. I forgot to mention him in the above reads list but I can't really ever see him as scum.

I think Dunn's posting is just suicide if he's aligned with NSG. Dunn is independently townie already, and his defense of FF only works if FF is also scum or if he's trying to pocket FF. I don't think FF is scum, and a FF / NSG / Dunn team makes no sense from EoD. Dunn was already town blocked, there's no reason to burn that cred and bus the non!FF partner. If Dunn is aligned with NSG and not FF, then... He's just going for the deep game pocket on FF while bussing his partner in White Flag? When two scum dead means the end of the game? No. The only way that is possible is if the other scum is like Ceph or Cheeky or maybe Hop who is widely town read and even if that's the case, Dunn is still just townie. #1394 isn't a partnery post either.

Cheeky is dead on with his town game. I nailed Cheeky as a deep wolf in a game I subbed into here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 9#p9999919 . I think his town game is pretty billboardy. He doesn't enjoy scum as much as town, and tries harder than some players. Not the hardest read as long as you look past the surface level. I am less confident on this read after the flip, but still pretty confident he's town.

My Auro town read is independent of his content. His interactions with FF end of D1 were more townie than not overall. However, there are two main factors going into this read that I should mention. Number one is that Duck has a 80-90% hard confident town read on him. And I'm factoring this in. The second point is that his wagon for a long time was just composed of my scum reads. Generally has much more town than not posts.

BBmolla pressing onto NSG over FF is weird if partners, especially since he could've taken the easy OMGUS on FF. Could be a spew if he thought he was gonna die. And I suppose in the name of BLAH BLAH INFORMATION LYNCHES BLAH BLAH then his alignment could be cool, since if he is town there's almost certainly scum in his flash wagon. But overall, he's slight town and I don't care to kill him. It would also be odd for BBmolla to kill KittyMo over Dunn or Dann or even Ceph when #1480 exists.

Turkey just sat on NSG for a long while. This is a weird slot in general, both as town and scum. So, no strong read. Has some okay interactions I guess.

I thought Hop was super town early on, and I influenced Dann's early read. Hopkirk is a pretty good player in my opinion so I'm open to being wrong. It's true that both his posting around NSG is suspicious and his upset attitude around day start is a bit suspicious. I'm not gonna complain about a free red flip. But I would feel bad being wrong on this read since I think he's played well as either alignment, and that stuff is a feelsbadman thing to get killed over if you're town. But, the associatives are a bad look. Overall a scum lean but not my top kill for today.

The flips are NAGL for Dong. Never been a town read. Awkward posting. Can die.

Esp has absolutely awful associations. Dismissing the NSG wagon was bad. His awful attitude is annoying. I don't really care to case this, but I think I should have some sway for obvious reasons? To me, Esp looks like obvious mafia atm.

It's possible I'm wrong on a town read of course, but I don't think the pool of [Dong, Esp, Hop] doesn't have at least 1 scum. My strength of preference is Esp >>> Dong >> Hop.

Now that I'm writing it out, I don't really remember why I thought FF/NSG was never SvS, but I'm just gonna sheep my past self here. If FF is scum, that'll probably become obvious eventually anyways. Not interested killing there today.

@Cheeky, since Pops is dead does she have anything to add here?

@Hop, I'd like to get some input from Hectic as well. Just general stuff.

[Donempire]

im shading scum so that makes me scum

wtf

Shading them but voting someone else

Lynching FF becomes a lot harder if Nsg is lynched first, I'm sure you planned to bus day 2 because Nsg wouldn't be able to show she was town, and because she would have let the maf team know that

NSG was talking about surviving to day 2 and starting to play then. If she hadnt kept up on that promise she would have been lynched, regardless of whether or not i "bussed" her.

Shading her would have been scum indicative if she flipped town. Makes no sense for me to do as scum, especially in a game where its very easy to lose as scum due to scum having higher numbers but losing at 1 pop

If i wanted to lynch ff now i would have been pushing him, i dont care how difficult a game gets clearly, im playing on a razors edge with everyone scumreading me. Thanks for that but im not that forward thinking.

[Donempire]

Please just say what you think about my posts, half of everyones posts is either "dong is bad but uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh" or "dong is bad" without any further explanation. List your problems or fuck off so we can move onto a cheeky wagon

Friendly reminder that this is a post cheeky made

If this is mountanious like i've been told we have an easy win on our hands. In the meantime while i catch scum:
VOTE: Formerfish

Auros not my scumread, i think that defending himself isnt indicative of scumminess but rather misplaced focus. Espeonage is my highest scumread right now and former would have to come second though its not half as strong as esp.

Dong distancing from FF?

[Dannflor]

Dong what happened to your hard Esp scum read

[Auro]

He's just going for the deep game pocket on FF while bussing his partner in White Flag? When two scum dead means the end of the game? No.

I mean, if NSG just outright says she's not gonna play the game and you're sure she's getting lynched at some point... Might as well bus, no?