Team Mafia 2020: Normal Game (Endgame)

[Iconeum]

This isn't about Mathblade. This is about the game.This is about the fact that it's, like, essentially impossible to win a game with Mathblade without either policy lynching them or quarantining them and ignoring their reads.

You made this about him. I'm calling you out as scum. Your only rethoric is pointed at how bad of a player Math supposedly is.
You are turning it specifically away from the game itself.

If you honestly believe that for you to win you have to get rid of Math, you would have done so on D1.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think TW is above average for sure. If my goal was to disrupt town unity with a mislynch as scum though it would have been Skitter 100% of the time.
This doesn't necessarily sound the greatest given our altercation D1, but there you go. And I could just as easily have lynched Ari during the middle of the day.

You made this about him. I'm calling you out as scum. Your only rethoric is pointed at how bad of a player Math supposedly is.
You are turning it specifically away from the game itself.

If you honestly believe that for you to win you have to get rid of Math, you would have done so on D1.

You do recall that I tried to lynch Math D1, right? And everyone got super super mad at me and I just didn't feel like making the game a toxic wasteland?

[RadiantCowbells]

u made this about him. I'm calling you out as scum. Your only rethoric is pointed at how bad of a player Math supposedly is.
You are turning it specifically away from the game itself.

That's because I'm not actually arguing that I'm town because no case has been presented for why I'm scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also my getting lynched today... really wouldn't upset me all that much?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like if you sincerely want to engage with me on whether I'm scum or not and have a case that you want me to address I'll address it but I kinda feel like you've just decided I'm scum regardless of alignment and your vote isn't changing.

[Iconeum]

You know what

I think RC is actually just scum

His Ari wagon was bad
His lynching of TW was terrible
Him going after nothing but inactives at this point makes no sense
And I have a very strong feeling he's just backing up from me/math now that he realizes he can't break the townblock, which very much feels like his intention this weekend

Maybe you didn't read this.

Let me expand:

You pushed Ari up until close to L-1 and when the heat really turned on you derailed it yourself, destroying much of the gamestate while at it.

You pushed TW for trying to policy lynch you, supposedly with backup from your team. 'confscum' you called him. Taking complete control over the gamestate and took out one of the most valuable town day-assets we have.

You were trying to break the townblock by going after Math and me 'why was i even townreading there' 'it's so Obvious omg'
When that failed you turned your attention to an 'obvious scum solve' in ALL of the inactives.


I really don't see you trying to win this game as town here, hence you must be scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

You were trying to break the townblock by going after Math and me 'why was i even townreading there' 'it's so Obvious omg'
When that failed you turned your attention to an 'obvious scum solve' in ALL of the inactives.

Okay so I'll start with this one first.

1) I was actually the one that dragged Aristophanes at least back to Shos. I also told Skitter30 I wasn't interested in leading on Math but would consider it if she was interested.
You're acting like the order of operations here is something involving me trying to push something then backing off because it became impossible.
This is not true. We have at least 3 people willing to vote Mathblade if I want to do that and most of the thread hasn't responded. I wasn't interested because... it didn't feel like it was a likely scum hit.

Second: Yeah, that's kind of what happens in this situation?
I've gone after every single person in the active pool in some way to try to prod a reaction that might indicate that they're scum. Everyone keeps, like, not being scummy?
So once I go after all the active people and not one of them actually feels like scum, isn't it the natural followup that I'm like ok scum are all lurking?

[RadiantCowbells]

You pushed Ari up until close to L-1 and when the heat really turned on you derailed it yourself, destroying much of the gamestate while at it.

You pushed TW for trying to policy lynch you, supposedly with backup from your team. 'confscum' you called him. Taking complete control over the gamestate and took out one of the most valuable town day-assets we have.

Bluntly, I do not understand what your point is regarding the Ari situation. I wagoned someone, NSG said they were a bad lynch, I switched wagons.

Regarding Duckling, I don't know. Would you townread someone who called you out for not being able to 'spin a narrative in real time' when they'd seen you do it as town a billion times? Would you townread someone who claimed that you 'claimed investigative to have an excuse to not get nightkilled'? Would you townread someone who is aware that threats of policy lynching you are a massive trigger point who started doing them like super early in the game? Would you townread someone who called you scum for not considering other options when your vote had literally just been on someone else and while it was on that other person they were calling you scum for not voting them?

Duckling went total war against me didn't care if I was scum or town and just tried to leverage anything he could against me. He got lynched for it.
I literally told him he was welcome to wait until D2 if he couldn't get into the gamestate as you pointed out to him and most of his case was NAI as you also pointed out.

It sucks but even NSG at the end was like ok yeah this has to die.

[Iconeum]

Reading your 4732, RC, how can you accept that Ari was townreading you all that time?

[Iconeum]

And ffs, during the actual 1v1 with TW you did your very best to downplay his push on you as a PL. Nothing more. Now suddenly you are accepting that he did in fact have reasons?

[RadiantCowbells]

you're like 10 levels deep into trying to bury me with rhetoric.... like no person can retain this much information and just recall it all on the fly while simultaneously painting this spectacular narrative.... like this is either exactly pre written or you were anticipating if you kept shitting on me eventually I'd wipe it off and glare at you...? idc which but it feels transparent

still waiting on the scumgame you were talking abt bc I literally can't remember it -- was it BoP? Ank became kinda obvtown and cashing in on the {urap, rc} friction was our only path to victory. I'm not capitalising on any friction here. I'm creating the friction.... This push is very far outside of my scum m.o. (to paraphrase you, do the bare minimum possible)....how the fuck can you earnestly look at this and reach the conclusion I'm trying to do the same thing?

it's all like, really clearly pushing ~an agenda~ but you're treating me with just enough negligence that you don't need to slow down and check yourself on any point

like fmpov you're getting scummier every time you post

my claimed belief is that i don't give a stuff if you're bussing or not, aorn. my claimed belief is that i don't have a firm read on ari and i do have a firm scumread on you. ergo, am voting you.

Again, from the point of these two posts onwards I really just honestly didn't consider the possibility of them being town because like

It felt so aware that I was town when they said that, essentially, my posts had too coherent and overarching a narrative to be produced in real time as scum so they had to be prewritten when I had absolutely zero warning that they were going after me, and were trying to discredit me for it? And then them saying I "treated them with just enough negligence that you don't need to slow down and check yourself on any point" to me read as them, again, knowing that I was town and everything I said was 100% factual and wanting to discredit me for saying 100% factual things.

I was mind blown by that town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Reading your 4732, RC, how can you accept that Ari was townreading you all that time?

Like I said, I think it's... really obvious that I'm town and the fact that my alignment is in contention doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Aristophanes seeing that really doesn't surprise me or make me think that he's scum. Particularly when he has access to Nancy Drew.

And ffs, during the actual 1v1 with TW you did your very best to downplay his push on you as a PL. Nothing more. Now suddenly you are accepting that he did in fact have reasons?

I mean, I still think everything that he said was complete bollocks but I went through his posting a lot when I realized he was town and tried to unpack his thought process.
I still think that in the end the things he said weren't relevant and the reason he said so much shit that didn't make sense is he wasn't pushing me for them.
He had just decided I was scum for some reason or other and was trying to leverage anything he could against me because I'm ~spooky~ as scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I think it's obvious just in general that I've gone through Duckling's ISO a lot trying to figure out exactly where we went wrong.
My perspective on his push on me is obviously different at this point than it was when I was hyper adrenalined up trying to kill him?

[RadiantCowbells]

Iconeum, my turn: what's your Ari read?

[Iconeum]

I think it's... really obvious that I'm town

Give me the TLDR on why you think you should be townread?

[Iconeum]

Iconeum, my turn: what's your Ari read?

Like I said, my team has been pushing me to townread Ari. I'm not really townreading him, specifically disliking his apparent lack of solving

I don't think you and him are S/S because your interactions don't really make sense to me then. But what do I know

[Iconeum]

If it came down to deadline and everyone was rushing for a lynch, I wouldn't mind Ari being the lynch.

[Iconeum]

Honestly I think my scumreads are lacking this game.

If you flip scum then we lynch Flopz tomorrow tho

[Iconeum]

+chance you guys are chilling in a different PT

[RadiantCowbells]

Sure.

1) The fact that this is the first game in TM that NSG got involved in. I paraphrased a bunch of her shit in mid D1 regarding TW that includes a decent chunk of information that I was clearly not privy to in the original discussions (ie, NSG's list of games with TW.) If I were scum, I'd have no rush to leverage her. As town thinking that I am an early nightkill, getting her involvement early was paramount. NSG hating scum is also a thing but I don't think that's the only reason to townread this fact.

2) Compare my Duckling push to one of my scum pushes. Generally when I push people as scum I narrow it down to a focused set of bullet points and mostly focus on responding to their counterarguments because it's a lot easier than trying to continually generate reasons to push people as scum. As town I can process a lot of stuff at the same time and come up with just an insane amount of different reasons why someone is scum because in the early game as town I don't stop reading the thread until I know most of the game from memory. When Duckling alluded to the fact that I couldn't produce that kind of rhetoric in real time it would have been true if I were scum but it was absolutely untrue as town which, yeah, is why I scumread him for it.

3) And I can cite the shit out of this. There is 1 major thing that I am truly incapable of doing effectively as scum and that is faking the kind of in-tune reactivity that I have as town. Like the rapid fire wagon switches, my reads rapidly shifting in response to new evidence, I cannot fake it. I can link you to many references to this because it's been my weakness ever since I adapted this playstyle as town. I can also literally go through all of my scum games chronologically and show that I have never managed it as scum. Before I get people threatening banhammer this isn't a trust tell because the point of a trust tell is that you choose not to do something as town. I am well and truly incapable of it, it's just literally impossible to do convincingly and attempting it is usually pointless because it's not something that pops up in ~all~ of my town games so when it doesn't show up I can just say well, I already have my reads sorted out and they don't need further sorting.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you're pushing me for me being all over the place wagoning everyone in the townblock but

1) I eventually decided they were all town, and I didn't exactly halt on any of them based on viability? You and Bella expressed interest in RCE, Ari and Skitter expressed interest in Mathblade.
Simply put, like, if I was scum I wouldn't be wagon shopping, I would have a very clear idea of who exactly I can and cannot lynch before I vote them and I would be presenting a much more coherent front.

The fact that I have wagoned basically every slot this day phase and decided that they're all probably town is actually a pretty good argument for me being town genuinely sorting, not scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

With regards to the memorization thing further

A vast amount of the time I catch scum not because anyone posted anything new and often not because I was reading at the time. It just

happens

. My reads are weird.
There was a night where I pulled an all nighter doing something unrelated to mafia and then in the morning eating french toast was like yeah ok SS is scum in BP and Jamelia is scum in the newbie.

Both were scum. This is also why I said that you trying to BoP me for a read before the end of the day phase is a bad idea, because I really just try new things until I feel like I've solved it.

I'm pretty bad at mafia, but I'm pretty good at this adjacent game to mafia called stalling and pushing random shit until I end up with a solve.

[RadiantCowbells]

Generally when I push people as scum I narrow it down to a focused set of bullet points and mostly focus on responding to their counterarguments because it's a lot easier than trying to continually generate reasons to push people as scum.

Actually this is a pretty big one that I've never really thought about as a tool to read me: look how frequently as scum I play reactively in pushes on people.
I make the one major case on them that instigates, then following that I encourage other people to vote but I don't continue to like come up with new reasons why they're scum
I just wait for them to try to make a counterargument and then I refute that and just keep doing that until they're down
With TW I was doing a lot more pointing to new realizations and new ways to look at the game and I really couldn't be bothered to respond to a lot of stuff they posted.
This meta is super dead after this game since I've called it out but I think that you can find that this is very reliably true.

[RadiantCowbells]

And honestly if I were scum I'd know that saying all scum are lurking isn't going to go over well. I can come up with way spicier reads that are very believable as scum if I want to.
But sometimes I'm town and, like, I have to call a spade a spade and say that everyone who is posting seems to be town so lynch the people who aren't?

Like I already got AngryDucked for taking this exact stance on D1. I clearly know it's not conducive to making friends. I'm taking it anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

if he flips town just systematically assassinate his master perfect unstoppable POE of null lurkslots and as he's saying now I'm sure that'll go fine

Like this already happened. I don't make the same mistake twice as scum, or usually even once. These are just the reads I keep coming back to.