Team Mafia 2020: Normal Game (Endgame)

[RadiantCowbells]

The latter is very much how you come across to me. Especially on the shos wagon. If you take control and restrict others movement in a mafia game you have to be that level of sure. To the point you’d be willing to die for it. Because no other reads get generated. You very much come off as avoiding responsibility this game whatever your intent is.

Are you sure enough on Saudade that you’d be willing to risk that? Because right now no one agrees with you and multiple people agree you’re scum. None of whom except Saude you scumread.

If you are that sure you should say you’re willing to be BoP’d on it. If not then you need to poke around Saude and ask Saude questions so that way you can have your read get stronger or he is forced to spew either town or scum.

The thing is I'm explicitly not taking control or restricting other's movements. The way I see it, Skitter is the only person who has really been pushing people I scumread and she's not going to get the lynch off without team support and I'm trying to help her on that. I have done the opposite of taking control or restricting people's movements outside of saying to not vote me who is confirmed town power role fmpov.

Here's what I think happens if I declare BoP on Saudade.
The townblock gets split between Saudade/Shos votes, Skitter stays on Shos, a bunch of people split
No sort of consensus wagon forms and we get stuck between the two throughout the day
While this back and forth goes on the wagon on me gets traction because there's no coherent wagon opposed to it and eventually everyone gets tired of the fight and decides to lynch me instead.

I -cannot- just lynch Saudade by saying BoP me on Saudade or else I would have done it a very long time ago.

Specifically this one here.

Skitter says they scumread me more after the protective claim but is acting like they want Shos more. This is very odd. She didn’t go into why and shaded her own thoughts just a bit later.

It’s reaaaaally bad.

Are you missing the posts where she talked about how she just didn't have the mental energy to deal with a potentially toxic thing?

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't vote someone just because I scumread them. I think that Skitter is the same way. Sometimes the correct play is to not just go after your biggest scumread.
I think it's very reasonable that she was in a similar boat to me when I was scumreading you in that she wanted to go after you but she knew it would completely destroy town unity and if she was wrong pretty much lose the game instantly. I think that from her point of view it would also be extremely stressful because she's conflict avoidant (I am also incredibly conflict avoidant IRL but I turn it off during mafia.) Furthermore there's no guarantee that we actually get you lynched even if we go after you and if Skitter thinks that you're scum primarily because you're hard counterwagoning Shos, then the Shos wagon is just as good, no?

[RadiantCowbells]

Further follow up on the Gameshow argument: Dannflor/ND hydra was the one and only slot in the game that was townread above me and that's why I said earlier that I am more worried about Dannflor as scum than the other 3. I actually don't know how worried I would be about Duckling because I don't recall ever playing scum vs him since Friemds mafia but I feel more general internal angst about it than I do facing EC or Ank.

[RadiantCowbells]

Math you're simultaneously calling me out for controlling the game too much and ceding control of the game too much and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to that.

[MathBlade]

Nope.

That’s exactly to what I am referring to.

She shaded her own wagon by calling me toxic when I haven’t been except for the poor word choice which I apologized for.

It also discourages anyone from pushing me.

So assuming you’re town, the more likely conclusion is that she is buddying you by saying that. And if it took off she could join it.

At the same time it would rile you up to think it’s possible when no one else agreed with you.

I think if she thought I was scum it wouldn’t be a problem as she has pushed me as scum before and it wasn’t toxic. It doesn’t give.

Do you want my example?

[MathBlade]

It doesn’t jive**

Fuck autocorrect.

[RadiantCowbells]

I do not want your example because I think you are conflating two different things.

I do not think that she is accusing you of being toxic. I think she is saying that it would be toxic to the gamestate. I think that she is saying that everyone in the game would hate it because it would be loud and vocal and it would be impossible to sort the lurker slots which was basically everyone's priority at that point in the game. I also think she has basically no motivation to buddy me if she is scum when the game thinks that I'm scum and all she really needs to do is take the free mislynch.

I also literally told her I wasn't gonna try to lynch you unless she did so I don't think that works as a reason either.

[MathBlade]

Math you're simultaneously calling me out for controlling the game too much and ceding control of the game too much and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to that.

It’s about when and how you do.
(Assuming you’re town...)
For example with TW it was really scummy how you controlled the gamestate if you’re town.

No one was able to talk about anything and begged for day to end vs asking questions.

And now here you’re just kinda playing dead (except until this last convo) trying time ignore any sort of input.

There is a middle ground. It’s just contributing. It’s listening with the intent to understand versus the intent to reply.

[MathBlade]

I do not want your example because I think you are conflating two different things.

I do not think that she is accusing you of being toxic. I think she is saying that it would be toxic to the gamestate. I think that she is saying that everyone in the game would hate it because it would be loud and vocal and it would be impossible to sort the lurker slots which was basically everyone's priority at that point in the game. I also think she has basically no motivation to buddy me if she is scum when the game thinks that I'm scum and all she really needs to do is take the free mislynch.

I also literally told her I wasn't gonna try to lynch you unless she did so I don't think that works as a reason either.

I don’t see the gamestate that way.

I think you’re substituting your own goals for everyone.

I think that’s part of the problem.

[RadiantCowbells]

It’s about when and how you do.
(Assuming you’re town...)
For example with TW it was really scummy how you controlled the gamestate if you’re town.

No one was able to talk about anything and begged for day to end vs asking questions.

Thing is: it's something that I would do there as either alignment in reaction to that push on me by Duckling so at worst it should be seen as null.

And now here you’re just kinda playing dead (except until this last convo) trying time ignore any sort of input.

There is a middle ground. It’s just contributing. It’s listening with the intent to understand versus the intent to reply.

I am not playing dead: I have had plenty to say about reads I have just mostly been focused on talking to Ari and Skitter who are my townblock-that-generally-agrees-on-reads.
I do not think that me trying to play town leader directly in this gamestate would be productive so focusing on influencing the person deciding the direction is the alternative strategy.

I don’t see the gamestate that way.

I think you’re substituting your own goals for everyone.

I think that’s part of the problem.

And I think that you oversimplify everyone's reads into what's pro-town in the simplest terms and what isn't and you fail to see nuance and shade of grey and alternative reasons for people's actions.

[RadiantCowbells]

I also think you have a tendency to either see the gamestate as you want to see it or present it as such as opposed to how it is but that's an entirely different topic.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hell, you might even perform better on a website where there's an implicit rule that everyone acts pro-town in the obvious sense and that anyone who deviates from that gets lynched so everyone's motivations are watered down and simplified and you don't have to worry about getting false positives based on people who act unpredictably or based on motivations that you don't understand. But this is still MS and I think that I understand Skitter30's motivations better than you.

[MathBlade]

See if I had two vigs I would shoot Skitter and shoot you if she was red.

And I strongly suspect she is.

She is night and day different than Extra Communication.

She talked more about people’s reads and clears even if they were on her scumspect.

She just feels wrong.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p9773618

She cites posts and cases. There’s something off with her.

I have to go to bed now but Ico RCE and me I could townblock. I can’t do you and Skitter though.

[RadiantCowbells]

That game was three years ago when she was a fresh player and back when she had the wallpostier meta. Her meta changed significantly in 3 years. She, unfortunately, has chosen to be a lot less explain reads-y and a lot more of what you see here. I miss her wallpostier days. I can actually see why you scumread the shift because I found her incredibly easy to read when she was more open with her thoughts and have struggled relatively in recent times. I think that you should read a recent game from her to compare to instead of using three year old meta because if that was my only meta context I would scumread her too.

[RadiantCowbells]

From where I'm standing there isn't literally a 0% chance that Skitter30 is scum. I think that it is quite unlikely relatively but not literally 0.
But, uh, if she's town we have a fairly good shot at winning this and if she's scum we really just don't have any shot at winning this.

It's an incredibly low equity play to go after her and I would rather play to my outs and assume that scum is in the scummy people as opposed to the villagery people who might be playing a god tier game.

[MathBlade]

From where I'm standing there isn't literally a 0% chance that Skitter30 is scum. I think that it is quite unlikely relatively but not literally 0.
But, uh, if she's town we have a fairly good shot at winning this and if she's scum we really just don't have any shot at winning this.

It's an incredibly low equity play to go after her and I would rather play to my outs and assume that scum is in the scummy people as opposed to the villagery people who might be playing a god tier game.

From where I am standing I would rather take out you or Skitter. Because I am better at finding deep wolves than traditional. I am better at finding town in scummy players but once I have a possible pool narrowing from there is my weakness I think. Like I don’t see Skitter town and I gotta go to bed.

I will try to find a newer game of hers though.

[RadiantCowbells]

That might actually elucidate why I'm interacting with Skitter the way I am. Basically I consider it the equivalent of a hearthstone game where your opponent might have consecrate. If you play around it, you have about a 20% chance of winning and they have about a 25% chance of having it. If you don't play around it, you have about a 60% chance of winning if they don't have it and a 2% chance of winning if they don't.

Even if not playing around consecrate gives you that 2% chance of winning if you're unlucky and Skitter is scum, not playing around consecrate is still 45.5% win equity versus 20% win equity.
There's just no reason for me to reevaluate that read if I want to play to win.

From where I am standing I would rather take out you or Skitter. Because I am better at finding deep wolves than traditional. I am better at finding town in scummy players but once I have a possible pool narrowing from there is my weakness I think. Like I don’t see Skitter town and I gotta go to bed.

I will try to find a newer game of hers though.

Be very careful that your definition of being better at finding deep wolves than others isn't the same thing as saying I always scumread people who are good at deepwolfing and sometimes I'm right.
Because almost everyone whom I have ever played with who said something to that effect ends up calling me scum in all of our games regardless of my alignment and hoping to be right.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like (and Titus might find that read relevant) it's the same reason I never reconsidered LLD scum in Magical Girls. I absolutely considered that she could be scum. I scumread the fuck out of her posting.
But I'm not going to play around a townie fakeclaiming masons with scum because the vast majority of time townies claim masons they are not fakeclaiming.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really do think that everyone should play to have the highest win equity in the bigger picture as opposed to getting stuck on the weeds about having potential autoloss scenarios in individual games.

[RadiantCowbells]

also i am *incredibly* suspicious of how fast that wagon built
i think that there's more than one scum on that wagon

Actually there is 1 thing that I want to talk about. Ico/Math are now conftown. That leaves Saudade/Xtoxm. Shouldn't you be considering Saudade on that basis?

[MathBlade]

I like that analogy it’s kinda similar to my play but it’s more poker based for me

I look at my hand and the level of confidence I have. Eg me + Ico. If someone has more of a read than the confidence I have it’s a cause for concern and a good way to find deep wolves.

If someone is more confident than you when you have damn near close to facts it’s delusion or scum more than likely

I am super sleepy but good night.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that judging me based on anything that you've said so far in this thread as a way to judge people's alignments is just flat out not gonna work.
If you want to determine if I'm scum you can either go off of really easy stuff like postcount, investment, BoP "IN GAMESTATES WHERE PEOPLE LET ME DO MY SHIT"
or you need to go off of way more complex vectors.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like what makes me a good deepwolf vector is I'm capable of having relatively confident townreads on really good scumplayers, so when those townreads are missing it's cause for alarm.
Not for my ability to call them scum the majority of the time, which literally anyone can do and most good scum players have the ability to deal with anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also if Skitter is scum, it's with Sau but not Plum, if that gives you any more motivation than you previously had to consider Saudade.

[RadiantCowbells]

Saudade, is there really no game relevant commentary in you team thread?

can i have link to my team thread

are you on my team teacher

ok saudade is prob town

this is umm also a pretty incredible reason to have that read, js.