Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Farkran]

Also good night everyone, 2 am here, see you tomorrow.

[popsofctown]

Most recent votecount:

#

[Farkran]

...i forgot i had an active spare vote.

HEAL: popsofctown

I will only spare my favorite pops of all time, who coincidentally is doing a really fine work with flavor.

Now good night for real!

[Amrun]

We are ~4 days to deadline now. Game might have been slow, but right now, with replacement extensions, we have plenty of time to avoid unnecessary no-flip sparing. I mean, even a lynch on my slot is better than sparing, but first i'd like to understand why you have been compromising on my pred as a lurker rather than lurker-pine, or sujimichi. I don't like my pred ISO too, but it's like 10 posts, and after learning my role PM my POV requires me to be wary of people opportunistically joining my wagon. Sujimichi was the vote that struck me most, and i am wondering why it didn't strike you (@amrun) as well.

As I previously explained, it DID strike me, but wasn’t really relevant since I was using his hurt to get us closer to goal. Scum can bus, but more likely, one of my early scumreads is wrong so using one to get the other doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

No I agree! I want to hurt Sujimichi. But deadline was approaching (like fast) and I didn’t have anything new to present on Sujimichi to convince anyone. I didn’t want to cause us to no action. Sparing Hectic isn’t the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be nothing which we were headed to rapidly (and still kinda are).

I agree with you on this and I’ll work with you on suji despite my reservations if it lets us avoid sparing

HURT: suji

HEAL: unvote

Oooh it’s so nice to be able to read your posts without hurting my brain!!!

UNVOTE: heal[/heal]

HURT: Sujimichi

In case I was still on Asriel, can’t remember. As Farkran has correctly pointed out, we now have a little deadline breathing room, so let’s use it.

[Amrun]

Oops

UNVOTE: heal

[Amrun]

Honestly, I feel kind of unimpressed by nachomamma given his reputation. I feel like there’s been a certain amount of aiming but not really the town leading I hoped for/expected to see. I am somewhat uncomfortable that he entered advocating for fighting someone but later shifted to wanting to share hectic, and while I do think hectic is probably town I think his gimmick is a weak reason to be TRing him.

I’m having a feeling like I’ve said some of this before, but I’m not certain, and to get back into this game I sort of need to reiterate some of the points to myself

I think my behavior has been similar to Nacho’s on this point - why is it scummy for him but ok for me?

[Amrun]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Do share.

[popsofctown]

Oops

UNVOTE: heal

This isn't valid.
Nothing that's not red or yellow counts in this game

[Chemist1422]

HEAL: pops

I think I'm liking the Sherlock slot a bit more now with his recent posting, specifically the progression on Nacho

Still feel fine about town!Fark as well

[Amrun]

#452 from Sherlock is Townie and does a super good job reperesenting why I also townread chemist. He just did a better job putting it into words.

[SherlockHolmes]

Honestly, I feel kind of unimpressed by nachomamma given his reputation. I feel like there’s been a certain amount of aiming but not really the town leading I hoped for/expected to see. I am somewhat uncomfortable that he entered advocating for fighting someone but later shifted to wanting to share hectic, and while I do think hectic is probably town I think his gimmick is a weak reason to be TRing him.

I’m having a feeling like I’ve said some of this before, but I’m not certain, and to get back into this game I sort of need to reiterate some of the points to myself

I think my behavior has been similar to Nacho’s on this point - why is it scummy for him but ok for me?

You’ve been here more I think, and I think you’ve been more responsive in what you’ve been posting.

Also, respectfully, I’ve never heard your towngame talked of in the same terms as I’ve heard nacho’s talked of, despite the fact that I think you are a strong town player. There’s also correspondingly the fact that I think of you as a stronger scum player than town player, and frankly I think you’d seem townier here if you actually were scum. I think your lack of concern for your optics is +town because I think you’d be aware of that but I’m not sure you’d be confident enough in this playerlist and in a gamestate this atrophied for people to pick up on you not seeming that town being town indicative for you

[Amrun]

Oops

UNVOTE: heal

This isn't valid.
Nothing that's not red or yellow counts in this game

HEAL: unvote

Does this work?

[popsofctown]

Oops

UNVOTE: heal

This isn't valid.
Nothing that's not red or yellow counts in this game

HEAL: unvote

Does this work?

Yes.

[SherlockHolmes]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Do share.

I will share closer to deadline if there is a consensus that it should be outed

As I said, I mostly don’t want to because it’s icky

I think there’s some + to not outing it yet in that I think it’s quite clearing and scum knowing that I can put it forces them to either kill me before I do or for them to keep suji off limits as a mislynch option

On the flipside if it’s not clearing then it’s strong incentive for scum!suji to kill me ASAP and then claim this as a defence later on. So given that, it may be worth outing it D1 and checking that it is in fact clearing and not me seeing things strangely

It’s not a hard clear, for the record, it’s a perspective thing

[Amrun]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

Yowch, unvote Farkran after pressure, but not because of a townread. only to vote with him on a wagon of his creation.


Please y’all can we fight this?

[SherlockHolmes]

Also, to be clear amrun, me saying I think your scum game is stronger than your town game is not me putting down your town game: I’m saying I think your scum game is *very* strong while your town game is just *strong*

I also really didn’t mean to be rude on the reputation thing, I like you a lot, but it’s just that I’d heard of nacho before I ever played with him or saw him playing in a game and I only got to know you since you got back to site

[Sujimichi]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

Yowch, unvote Farkran after pressure, but not because of a townread. only to vote with him on a wagon of his creation.


Please y’all can we fight this?

Farkran is not voting Nachomamma8, and I was explicit that I expect to be able understand his alignment later in the game. You will find that I do not respond to pressure.

[Amrun]

Also, to be clear amrun, me saying I think your scum game is stronger than your town game is not me putting down your town game: I’m saying I think your scum game is *very* strong while your town game is just *strong*

I also really didn’t mean to be rude on the reputation thing, I like you a lot, but it’s just that I’d heard of nacho before I ever played with him or saw him playing in a game and I only got to know you since you got back to site

No offense taken. Nacho and I were peers at one point but he went on to improve / gain reputation while I siteflaked so I think the difference in reputation is accurate.

I would like to know who you’re an alt of though to help me read you. Mind sharing?

[Amrun]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

Yowch, unvote Farkran after pressure, but not because of a townread. only to vote with him on a wagon of his creation.


Please y’all can we fight this?

Farkran is not voting Nachomamma8, and I was explicit that I expect to be able understand his alignment later in the game. You will find that I do not respond to pressure.

Oh my bad 100%, I mixed up Sherlock and Farkran here. That is retracted.

I still don’t like your unvote here given your doubling down of suspicion once Farkran replaced in. I think Farkran’s points on this matter were quite good.

The only counterpoint I can think of is it would be easier to stay on the competing wagon than to try and wagon someone like nacho, as scum. But nacho has had an absence so he might appear to be an easier target than is actually true. Hmm

[Replica]

I disagree with the conclusion of Farkran's #444, I buy most of Sujimichi's #420 in explaining their reaction. I do think #456 is a bit delusional about the divorce bit, but I come out of this still liking Sujimichi over others. It might be helpful to try to order people somewhat; I'll try and circle back to that in a bit. Their mention of town Sujimichi also makes me want to go back and read them.

For multiple reasons Sujimichi is very low on my list to lynch. First: Willingness to hammer the spare. Second: Their playstyle strongly hints to me that we have to look for voting/pushing patterns over tone. Farkran's started to delve into the latter, but this is not my pick for the day.

P-Edit: The "I do not respond to pressure" is again failing to recognize their own limits I think, which is a shame. That's a liability for us, but it's also a big liability for them as a player more broadly.

[Sujimichi]

Could you expand upon how failing to respond to pressure is a liability? First, to clarify, I am not saying I do not respond at all, but you will not get an emotional reaction from me.

[Replica]

At first I really wanted something more thought out and cohesive from Sherlock, but as it went on I appreciated the impulsive and jumping nature more.

Overall, I'm conflicted but lean town on Sherlock.

The few problems I had with his recent posting are: First, #457's progression on alimdia seems weak to me. Alimdia's posting has noticeably improved, but the continued holding onto the read at the start is a mistake imo. I imagine Sherlock has seen plenty of town players with similar reactions to Alim's, which is why I thought this was a big nothing burger. At the start, this is fine, reads are weak, but holding to it in roughly equal weight to alimdia's progressions since is poor. Second, his locktown on Suji involved meta but was made with a ~6 minute time difference. I echo Amrun's comments about just outing it already, and think Sherlock's #488 is poorly reasoned even if not scum motivated. Third, his Chemist read is a lot better than Nacho's but is still bad imo. This might come down to an experience thing-the interaction with alim reinforces this.

Combined with Farkran's comments on Sujimichi meta I really want to do a dive soon.

I further think it’s unlikely that (nacho, replica) are SvS so if nacho flips scum then replica should be cleared and hectic should be reconsidered

This is good for me and you're right, but I think this gives me an excuse to highlight a a broader principle of the game imo. Scum have to worry a lot less about a lynch/bus gone wrong, especially from the perspective of someone who is pro-sparing. Specifically, splitting up the factions sacrifices the double spare chance for a better one at exactly one of you getting spared.

[Replica]

Could you expand upon how failing to respond to pressure is a liability? First, to clarify, I am not saying I do not respond at all, but you will not get an emotional reaction from me.

Sure thing, it's not the "failing to respond to pressure" that's a liability. It's the insistence that you can be perfection in your response: you

do, have, and will

respond to pressure. It will creep into your thoughts and posts, and you will react to it in some way. Pretending it is not there, or minimizing its effects, is itself a reaction. Standardizing it is possible, but only with great effort and an extensive record.

Logicians in general like to take stances that purport to remove their humanity or biases, but they're not so easily separated.

In short: Your ideals are admirable, but being a complete mafia player means recognizing your limitations, playing with them in mind, and even willfully letting others exploit them when the time is right.

[Replica]

Like, you recognized that you don't "not respond at all", but there's this underlying thread that it doesn't get to you or that it won't make significant effect, if that makes sense.

The comment from me was last second springboarding off of the "divorce" comment about Asriel/Farkran, which I was very skeptical of, after seeing the new post while previewing.

[Sujimichi]

Thank you. That is fair, and I was inaccurate in my statement.

In terms of your skepticism on my divorcing my reads on Asriel Dreemur and Farkran, I can only say that my read of Farkran at the time was made without consideration for Asriel Dreemur. I cannot prove or convince you otherwise.