Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Sujimichi]

I won that game though.

[Sujimichi]

Nevermind. It just clicked with me that you are using "loser" to refer to Mafia. Apologies.

[Farkran]

I'd like to run a questionary to everyone.

Say you need to pick exactly one scum in {nacho, amrun, chara and suji}. Who do you pick and why?

I'm not currently interested in theories where there are no scum or more than one scum among those, the premise is that there is exactly one. Let's try it. It's going to be useful.

[Sujimichi]

I am currently voting the player that I would pick given those options.

[Amrun]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.

Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.


This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.

[Farkran]

Well yeah i said the question was addressed to everyone but clearly amrun and suji were answering before i even asked

[Chara]

The only counterpoint I can think of is it would be easier to stay on the competing wagon than to try and wagon someone like nacho, as scum. But nacho has had an absence so he might appear to be an easier target than is actually true. Hmm

i was going to say i don't understand this because there's no need to swap to someone like Nacho over Farkran (assuming he's town), but given Farkran's start it's possible to think a lynch there is less viable now.

i still have this weird paranoia of Amrun that is based on my perception of her skill, which i don't really enjoy, but of the list i would probably pick Sujimichi.
i should put the work in, however.

[Chara]

Sujimichi, do you have a read on Amrun?

[Chara]

i had a look through his loser game and it seems like he spams a lot of useful looking questions without giving much analysis of his own while he's a loser.
not in this game though.
he's given detailed thoughts and analysis - like in his interactions with Nacho - and his questions have been more pointed.
he's a real pal.

this game has too much meta based on singular games. 1 to 1 comparisons aren't reliable.

[Sujimichi]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.

Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.


This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.

It is not close to extremely misrepresentative, so your dismissal causes me concern. Your initial rationale for your scum read on me was that I was attempting to blend in (see post 146), which I viewed as weak on its initial foundation, but we can assume you did not. You subsequently stated that additionally, you found my tone to be indicative of scum (see post 153); however, if you truly wished to assess this you would be able to see that this is my tone across all of my games. Next, despite initially saying you scum read me for attempting to blend in, you asserted you did not scum read me for that (see 165) after I questioned you, and instead re-asserted your scum read for my tone (see my previous comment regarding that). You then stated you thought my recent contributions were improved (see 254) and moved to another wagon. When Farkran entered and then stated a scum read on me, you began to walk back to my wagon (see posts 404 and 410) and then misrepresentated my actions, despite them being transparently stated (see post 489). When I called you on this, you walked it back but then stated you didn't like my unvote anyway (despite me stating why I made the action that I made) and deferred to Farkran's comments on my play.

Thus, I am asking for

your

current rationale for voting me without deferring to someone else's. This is not extremely misrepresentative. Please answer.

[Sujimichi]

Sujimichi, do you have a read on Amrun?

It is progressing towards Mafia.

[Chara]

HURT: pops

Farkran: i explained my Hectic spare when i gave the summary, i believe. early game he was towny and engaging.

the decision to delay his own spare is really the sticking point. there's really no reason for scum to not spare themselves there, and given where the gamestate was at at the time, scum Hectic being afraid of asking to be spared doesn't seem right either. i can't really see him as scum besides, and the regret at not hammering his own spare was something i didn't like upon seeing it, but i really doubt scum decides to lament that when we've gotten a much more fulfilling day out if it, in my opinion.

going to look at the count before i do anything as i don't want to end the day yet.

[Chara]

to elaborate, it feels honest in that it's an opinion scum would think twice about posting. it's true i had a fairly good townread on Hectic and wanted more than that to justify sparing him, but at this point i feel safe with the option, as much as i do with Replica, though i would like to verify that now that i have my laptop.

[Farkran]

@chara why did you heal replica later, then?

Also what do you answer to my questionary?

[Chara]

i answered your question, i said Sujimichi.

i don't know if i think that now, the latest response to Amrun is something i want to check. and i was concerned because it seemed strange that Sujimichi was on Nacho instead of Amrun, and i couldn't see what their read on her was, since it felt like a scumread but there was no indication of that i could find. the answer was what i was looking for if Sujimichi's town but i'm looking at their Nacho case now.

and about Replica, it's also in my ISO but i find their commitment to their scumhunting style difficult to fake (that it feels very genuine and not something they're putting on, even if they are wearing an alt right now) and the things that stick with them/stick out to them have a consistent internal logic.
502: i still don't quite understand Amrun and Replica's argument about it, or rather, i'm not sure how the post Replica is talking about there was read as a statement that i didnt expect Nacho to TR me, but both of them did read it that way so there must be something. given that, the way Replica responded to my Nacho comment (finding it strange i dismissed the read rather than want to engage on it further) is the sort of unobvious thing that's less useful to push as scum. scum like contradictions because they're final and provable (which is why i have a bias towards scumreading overly logical/"correct" players), but going for this angle is less defensible and harder to argue about.

[Farkran]

Sorry, for some reason i misinterpreted your 556. You quoted Amrun, so i didn't think you were actually answering to me

[Chara]

I ask because I think it’s directly relevant to my reading of your tone, but I get it if you’d prefer not to answer

now i'm curious about how you read the town of men as compared to women.

or how you'd read my tone. :>

[Farkran]

Chara, it is weird though that your spare targets are two people who are ultimately scumleaning you, when you claim you have been liking nacho's townread.

I mean, it would be acceptable (although almost never optimal play) to form a weak townread of someone who townreads you in return, but it's very unusual to form two strong townreads of people who are scumleaning you. I kinda never heard of that.

Can i ask you to produce a readlist for me?

[Chara]

Lynching lurkers as a compromise is one of the main ways in which towns lose games

Scum push one or two wagons up, town gets exhausted as the factions battle it out and then those wagons are potential mislynches down the line and a lurker has been got

An ISO being empty doesn’t mean the ISO is bad — the pine/pysche ISO isn’t bad, it’s just that there’s nothing there. If there were posts and there was still nothing there it might be bad, but as it stands it’s just... meh

People are notoriously bad at reading chemist because they think him lurking is NAI and fail to engage with what he does on its own terms. If you engage with chemist

as chemist

he’s very readable, and has produced solidly AI content even if there’s been a lot of memeing and not being serious and just being fun alongside it

It’s a matter of looking through the static to find the meaningful image, and that is possible from what he’s done thus far. I would be very surprised if chemist flipped scum this game

i agree with this, the point about compromise lynches being the worst possible option, and i also enjoy the background on Chemist. i would rather he participate more, however, or at least have some more urgency in getting things down, but he doesn't feel overly concerned about how he's being viewed by the thread.

474: i wouldn't call it a 1v1v1. i liked how Suji responded to me and didn't find Amrun's case convincing, but her comment about wanting to leave her vote on Sujimichi for a bit resonated with me. i suppose it's an easy thing to say, but at the time it mirrored why i wanted to stick with the vote on Amrun myself and that's usually town indicative.
Asriel's ISO was mostly empty but a wagon is better than no wagon, even though i don't enjoy wagoning lurkers. i didn't like how Asriel would pop in and show he was aware of the gamestate while not contributing anything, and i also didn't like how he didn't respond to my "in-character" pokes either.

your entrance has been fine. i would appreciate you outlining what your goal was in your questionnaire once it's been answered. it took me until literally just now to realize the four players were your wagon and not slots you merely had an interest in.

it does seem like you keep asking me questions where the answers are readily available in my ISO.

but to talk about the townhunting, i am better at that and i like townhunting setups. it does cause some paranoia when things come right down to it (especially in games like coalition and one i can't remember the name of but had voting up town to 'heaven' and scum down to 'hell') but i've ultimately had more success townhunting in games than i ever have scumhunting. so i'm working on building a strong PoE.
you and Sherlock are players i find difficult to read the tone of. and i say tone to mean something besides surface level emotional markers, it's more referring to the underlying "feeling" of a player, and i run into snags with players who make less mistakes and are generally... i want to say something besides "competent" because that definitely isn't it. it's more i have a tendency to scumread players who are very objectively correct and who don't post without thinking.

[Chara]

Chara, it is weird though that your spare targets are two people who are ultimately scumleaning you, when you claim you have been liking nacho's townread.

I mean, it would be acceptable (although almost never optimal play) to form a weak townread of someone who townreads you in return, but it's very unusual to form two strong townreads of people who are scumleaning you. I kinda never heard of that.

Can i ask you to produce a readlist for me?

i don't know if i understand what either of you mean. :>
1) i don't scumread Nacho, and 2) i was referring to being wary of my own inclination to TR a defense of myself, not that i shouldn't TR Nacho, if that is what you believe i meant.
what i was concerned about from that post was Nacho's essentially locktown read on Hectic. if he has a reason for it beyond what i believed the reason was at first (since he's said it isn't the roleplay/engagement combo) then i'd like to know what it is.

read point 2. i don't find it good practice to TR someone just because they TR you or defend you. in fact, it's not often a good idea. i was only commenting on my own instinct to do so, in that it felt good at the time.

why is it unusual? my read on Hectic has nothing to do with the read on me, and i'm very confident about it. do you think Hectic is scum and makes the decision to continue the day there, and then openly regrets it?
you can be town and wrong. town often

are

wrong, and fundamentally you find them by figuring out who is informed and who is not.
the way Replica has been reading me doesn't feel like scum pressing for a mislynch, either, which i also already explained.

[Chara]

what do you TR me for besides responding to your question?

i'm still reading but:
really very town: Hectic, Replica
townish: Chemist, Sujimichi, Amrun
leftovers: alimdia, Psyche, Sherlock, Nacho
scum?: Farkran

i hestitate to dismiss Sujimichi and Amrun entirely as TvT, and i think i ultimately feel better about Suji for town over Amrun.

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

forgive me if you answered this already, but i found it again and didn't find an answer. i was curious about what prompted you saying you liked their posting more, as opposed to not liking it earlier.

as for you, i liked your activity and burst of posting, but as i said your questions all have answers in the ISO you commented on having read.

[Chara]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.

Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.


This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.

It is not close to extremely misrepresentative, so your dismissal causes me concern. Your initial rationale for your scum read on me was that I was attempting to blend in (see post 146), which I viewed as weak on its initial foundation, but we can assume you did not. You subsequently stated that additionally, you found my tone to be indicative of scum (see post 153); however, if you truly wished to assess this you would be able to see that this is my tone across all of my games. Next, despite initially saying you scum read me for attempting to blend in, you asserted you did not scum read me for that (see 165) after I questioned you, and instead re-asserted your scum read for my tone (see my previous comment regarding that). You then stated you thought my recent contributions were improved (see 254) and moved to another wagon. When Farkran entered and then stated a scum read on me, you began to walk back to my wagon (see posts 404 and 410) and then misrepresentated my actions, despite them being transparently stated (see post 489). When I called you on this, you walked it back but then stated you didn't like my unvote anyway (despite me stating why I made the action that I made) and deferred to Farkran's comments on my play.

Thus, I am asking for

your

current rationale for voting me without deferring to someone else's. This is not extremely misrepresentative. Please answer.

i read 165 as consistent with Amrun saying you wanted to blend in, by echoing thread sentiment at the time to Nacho, and her saying she did not just scumread you for your lower post count at the time (point A, in 165) but that it complements the idea you were blending in.
i am curious about what she found better about your recent contributions, however.

you said Farkran is someone you think will be easier to read later, and that you didn't like his initial question about asking for a summary (which i did like, i find the practice useful and wanted to see what he would do with it). i'm interested in what you think of his recent posting.

[Farkran]

I admit i am focusing on the people who were on my wagon more than i am on people off. I already said how i think my pred ISO is bad enough to justify votes on me, but having 3 people joining the same wagon on both the spare and fight options pinged me. It is also weird to single out suji out of those 4, given that he is the one who isn't on the same spare wagon - that's why i am trying to -reasonably- remove paranoia bias on the other 3. I'm now interested in what nacho has to say about this, since both you and amrun singled out suji too.

As for why i am insisting on these questions, it's because i liked your iso on a first read, but on the second one i noticed it wasn't as clear and defined as i recalled it to be. Having you clarify on the points i am unsure of, and holding you accountable for them later will be useful. For instance, i'm still not entirely sure why you would pick suji over amrun, but you have talked enough about it, at least for now.

Also i am on mobile and mostly going from memory now - talking about hectic, i don't scumread him. Delaying a spare on his own self is presumably the worst thing scum could do, so that is a significant amount of towncred. The rest of his ISO, i'm... dubious. Hectic has a reputation of being unreadable (at least to me), so i will be slow forming a hard read on him. Definitely wouldn't fight there today.

Pedit: see, now you're confusing me. You say you'd pick suji for my questionary, but now you say you feel more confident on suji town over amrun. You said you like my entrance and you unfighted me, but i am still on the bottom of your readlist. I don't know if it's just me, but i am having an hard time making order in your thoughts. I mean no offense when i say this, it might be my problem rather than yours.

[Farkran]

I'll... get help.

@almidia, can you help me understand what Chara said in his most recent posts?

[Chara]

you agree it's the worst thing scum could do, but you're still dubious on the slot? i don't have any experience with Hectic, really, though it sounds like you do. do you think he would make that mistake at that time? even without it his ISO rings towny to me.

and if it's not clear, i've been catching up on reading the thread while i post, and in 564 i outright said i was reconsidering the Sujimichi pick, and what i was reconsidering. after looking at his ISO i was reminded of why i liked the slot.
i have been called inconsistent before so i don't exactly blame you for that, but it pinged that you kept asking questions that i can answer by simply repeating what i've already said.

i do apologize for being confusing. the list i gave you at the end is most accurate, and you're at the bottom because it felt like you didn't actually process my ISO/checked it before asking.
admittedly now i'm concerned i just am being unintentionally confusing, because that's a common criticism i get due to the piecemeal way i often post. reading your reply i can believe you're trying to make sense of it.

Spoiler: not game related, but if you're interested in knowing more about me

i have adhd and associated working memory issues, so trying to post in a more structured fashion has not, historically, worked out.

pedit: aha. get help? is it that bad?