Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 1.10

Hectic ----------------------------------

(3)

Nachomamma8, Hectic, Replica

Replica ---------------------------------

(1)

Chara

Farkran --------------------------------

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Sujimichi ----------------------------

(1)

Psyche

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

SherlockHolmes -----------------------

alimdia ----------------------------------

Psyche -------------------------------------

Not sparing:

- (6) SherlockeHolmes, Sujimichi, alimdia, Farkran, Chemist1422, Amrun

Fight Votecount 1.10

Hectic ----------------------------------

Replica ----------------------------------

Farkran ---------------------------------

(1)

Nachomamma8

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

(1)

Hectic

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

(1)

Sujimichi

Sujimichi --------------------------------

(1)

Farkran

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

SherlockHolmes ------------------------

alimdia ----------------------------------

Psyche -------------------------------------

(2)

SherlockHolmes, Amrun

Not Fighting:

- (5) Psyche, alimdia, Replica, Chemist1422, Chara

<3<3<3<3<3

3>3>3>3>3>3>

Replica shifted his body (or lack thereof) and tilted his head thoughtfully so they curled left instead of right. Then they spoke.
"I think there's a way we can not leave anyone out to not have to take votes. If we made voting simpler." Replica drifted closer to Hectic, who was currently trying to mimic Nachomamma8 but was unable to launch more than one leaf at a time because his legs were so skinny.
"We can all put on a different crafted piece of attire, then put Hectic in the middle. He can look around and see which one he likes the best, and will walk towards it. That person wins. Do... do you like it?" Replica looks meekly at Asriel as they present this counter offer.
Replica's version of the game didn't seem to involve Hectic creating a craft. Like all the younglings, Replica didn't know about the craft Hectic was very, very efficient at creating. But if Replica or the other younglings knew, they'd likely all enthusiastically vote either for Hectic to exempted from making a craft, or for a different game to be played. Or at the very least, the ones with a sense of smell would.

With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to make a decision.
(expired on 2020-02-01 19:00:00)

Replacement Key

[Psyche]

I don't care whether it breaks the rules or not, the quote speaks to a state of mind that leaves me all but certain you hadn't recently received a scum role pm elsewhere. I can hardly imagine anyone sincerely doubting you're town here.

[Hectic]

Spaghetti

[Hectic]

I don't care whether it breaks the rules or not, the quote speaks to a state of mind that leaves me all but certain you hadn't recently received a scum role pm elsewhere. I can hardly imagine anyone sincerely doubting you're town here.

but you may want to drop that reasoning.
unless you wanna have a bad time.
courtesy of pops of course.

[Hectic]

Most recent votecount: Dream

Last night, I finished the "fourth*" route: True Pacifism performed on a save file that has previously been used to perform Genocide. Now I actually feel qualified to moderate.

I used the ending portion as an opportunity to view/interact with the flavor claims in this game as much as I could! The only player totally left out was

_____Hectic_______________

.

Also, I discovered an unintended way to softlock the game by talking to Asgore and walking between him and the wall before he can return to his default posture. I could not repeat it, so it must require precise timing. Be amazed.

[Replica]

It's still worth asking though, why point 2 would be indicative of town!suji? You are implying he is low on your lynch list because of that, but i don't see atonality as town points.

The points weren't making a case for town Sujimichi, they were making a case for why I don't think he should be lynched today. I'm more confident in being able to read him later on than I am now. He was very low on the lynchlist, and still is.

i had a look through his loser game and it seems like he spams a lot of useful looking questions without giving much analysis of his own while he's a loser.
not in this game though.
he's given detailed thoughts and analysis - like in his interactions with Nacho - and his questions have been more pointed.
he's a real pal.

I agree with Hectic. The game is singular and short, but recent and there's an extremely noticeable difference in how forthcoming Sujimichi is with their thoughts here.

I do not have much of an opinion on the cited PT. It came 4 days after the start of this one. I can see Sujimichi saying it either way, particularly when looking for more guidance. Despite that, I agree with the conclusion-Sujimichi is probably town and remains a bad lynch.

[Replica]

Say you need to pick exactly one scum in {nacho, amrun, chara and suji}. Who do you pick and why?

Nacho and it is not close.

Suji is tackled above. I have not seen a reason to scumread Amrun, nor felt from reading a post that it was more likely as scum. They might be scum, but they're not where I'm looking and figuring that out I think would require me to dedicate more time than I'm giving to all of the other players combined right now: meta, patterns, whole shebang. The only thing I can think of that points this way would be a specific scum strategy to pocket Nacho. I'm happy letting them be town for now and coming back later if PoE says I should. Chara was a scumlean but I concur with my thoughts from yesterday: Their interactions with me/Amrun are worth the server they're stored on. Big townpoints.

After I realized I made the meta mistake, Nacho was a blindfolded dart throw based off of what he was advocating mechanically. That Chemist read (Probably town because why would Chemist defend the two lurkers) was so singularly terrible that it shot him way up. Definition of half-assed, and I strongly, STRONGLY doubt that it matches up to what he's seen from town/scum respectively over the years.

[Farkran]

I admit i missed Nacho's V/LA post too. This is... problematic. I have stuff i wanted to hear from nacho, but he's not coming back before deadline. I did not particularly scumread him though, especially given the recent swing against him. I don't like people going V/LA around deadlines when the day hasn't been decided yet, but i guess this is justified with the replacements coming in.

I really don't like psyche posts either... next post will include details. I am starting to have too many scumreads, i need to update my readlist and make order in my thoughts. Also coming in the very near future.

Pedit: where did you notice the differences between that scum!suji and this suji? Because if we're talking about the same game (Micro 917 saga stuff), he fakeclaimed a PR, no wonder why he was using a more determined tone. Plus, that's also a very nice scum game from him, and i don't see anything in this game that would be outside of his range.

Pedit2: ok, thanks. Question though, is there a reason why you specifically do NOT want to fight your scumreads? Why am i the only one who thinks that all the spare route rewards except the instant town win actually favor scum? In all of these, mafia gets to remove X people from the remaining list, it's not like we gain players. The 3 Spared scenario is especially bad because mafia gets to remove 2 players unflipped and we do NOT get to know if they were forced to remove one of them or not. Also what happens in the 1 Spared scenario if that spared player is scum? Is that an instant scum win? Because ... how can an unlynchable scum be removed otherwise?

[Replica]

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

This doesn't mean anything for alignment I'm pretty sure, so I'm going to separate this post, but is painfully ironic from someone who regularly responds to posts without reading them (evidenced by <1 minute timestamps), and has publicly acknowledged not reading the thread.

[Replica]

Still finishing up some other things-will circle back to you Farkran, I also missed an earlier question of yours so I'll come back to that too.

[Replica]

I don't like the reliance others are making on Nacho's reputation, but in general I agree with their push. His reads to me have been very suspect, not from an effort viewpoint but from a "Would he really not see or acknowledge the red flags here as town?" perspective

I really hate to do this, in that I really despise people worshipping players, but there's an easy solution here that doesn't involve a lynch. It's called...spare someone and grill Nacho later. 3 spare is a great strategy, and we can lynch him later. If he's town let him work for us. The setup to me is such that scum should get left alive until Day 4 anyway.

I will reiterate that I will not be voting to hurt today unless it becomes clearly required (eg. Sparing is clearly eliminated as a possibility, competing lynches of which one will be imminent)

[Farkran]

Subject: Saga Mafia Threats to Hazel PT

Hey mastina! I think that I should keep my current role, if that is okay with you. This is my first time as Mafia, and being assured of death prior to Day 3 relieves some of the pressure for me.

Suji started this game after s/he started this one. I think that dropping the tone in that comment is entirely natural, and wasn’t planned out as a safeguard against that game ending first, which makes me strongly believe they had rolled town in this game before getting their scum PM there.

This is why I said it was angleshooty and I still think it’s kind of ick, but I would like us to move on from suji!scum discussion.

Uhm, i originally skipped this because i didn't understand what you meant to say. Rereading psyche ISO, i went back to this too and understood what you meant to say. It's... eh, it's probably true. That PT probably shouldn't have been released, but i can't really blame Suji or the mod for it - you just don't think so far ahead wrt those arguments.

This also explains why the psyche ISO was looking poorly, before realizing that. Now it makes sense.

HURT: pops

[Amrun]

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

This doesn't mean anything for alignment I'm pretty sure, so I'm going to separate this post, but is painfully ironic from someone who regularly responds to posts without reading them (evidenced by <1 minute timestamps), and has publicly acknowledged not reading the thread.

I do not respond to posts without reading them... what an asinine assertion. How could anyone respond to a post without reading it first? Also, saying early game “hey, haven’t read the thread yet, catching up ASAP” and then doing so is completely and wholly different than trying to lynch someone without reading their ISO enough to realize they’re on v/la. A lot of people seemed to have missed it so maybe it was less obvious than I thought it was, but this post rubs me the wrong way, but not in an alignment way. It’s just annoying.

[Replica]

Pedit: where did you notice the differences between that scum!suji and this suji? Because if we're talking about the same game (Micro 917 saga stuff), he fakeclaimed a PR, no wonder why he was using a more determined tone. Plus, that's also a very nice scum game from him, and i don't see anything in this game that would be outside of his range.

His posts in that game were very short and limited in both how deep their thinking went and how forthcoming they were with that thinking. This is the post from Saga containing the most reasoning/longest train of thought Compare this to the thoughts of this game's #154 (very early), and the pairing of #213 and #217, where Sujimichi is very clear in how they've traced Chara's thinking and have clearly thought about it a lot.

It might be within Sujimichi's scum range, but that is a noticeably different Sujimichi than this one, and these games have been simultaneous.

Pedit2: ok, thanks. Question though, is there a reason why you specifically do NOT want to fight your scumreads? Why am i the only one who thinks that all the spare route rewards except the instant town win actually favor scum? In all of these, mafia gets to remove X people from the remaining list, it's not like we gain players. The 3 Spared scenario is especially bad because mafia gets to remove 2 players unflipped and we do NOT get to know if they were forced to remove one of them or not. Also what happens in the 1 Spared scenario if that spared player is scum? Is that an instant scum win? Because ... how can an unlynchable scum be removed otherwise?

I'm really not eager to dig into mechanics again but I've said a few times why I don't believe in lynching Day 1 specifically (odds). The chance of correctly sparing 3/4 are much better than you think, and the bonuses more valuable than you think. From my perspective I don't think the counterpoints offered by Nacho/Amrun/you outweigh these, and I don't think that activity, information, and mechanically optimal play are as mutually exclusive as you make them out to be.

There's a lot of personal perspective that goes into that. It sounds like you're wondering if there's more than a strategic basis for me specifically opposing the lynch. Fortunately, there is: I'm someone who doesn't believe much in the accuracy of my, or

literally anybody's

reads. Statistics bear out that town really does tend to gain advantages, but I suspect this doesn't come from players being godlike but from being only

marginally

more accurate than the RNG.

[Replica]

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

This doesn't mean anything for alignment I'm pretty sure, so I'm going to separate this post, but is painfully ironic from someone who regularly responds to posts without reading them (evidenced by <1 minute timestamps), and has publicly acknowledged not reading the thread.

I do not respond to posts without reading them... what an asinine assertion. How could anyone respond to a post without reading it first? Also, saying early game “hey, haven’t read the thread yet, catching up ASAP” and then doing so is completely and wholly different than trying to lynch someone without reading their ISO enough to realize they’re on v/la. A lot of people seemed to have missed it so maybe it was less obvious than I thought it was, but this post rubs me the wrong way, but not in an alignment way. It’s just annoying.

#274 responds to a gigantic post in a minute. #319 exists, highlighting that you missed it

twice

. #536 says that you hadn't read the thread at the time of (I think) #489. There are valid reasons to do the first, the second was incredibly frustrating but it's not like I don't do the same sometimes, the third is differing in its importance. I found it ironic but I don't think it's AI.

We both think lynching Nacho is awful, granted if lynching becomes imminent he's who I'm voting. As I wrote the above posts, I felt our goals aligned but that difference means their intersection could be a lot nastier than I hoped. Maybe I was too optimistic. Either way, highlighting the irony was unnecessary and I need to go back to not letting my ego take offense at your ego.

[Replica]

Psyche is down to spare Hectic. Chara seems like they're still down, though they're unsure which strategy to take more broadly. Sujimichi is pro-sparing. Chemist is open to sparing Hectic. Alimdia was open to sparing Hectic earlier.

Pretty sure we have the majority still intact despite the "impending no action scum deferral" doomsayers.

[Farkran]

Wrt the first pedit in my 682, i was just likely wrong on suji. I did not read the scum PT of that game. And this also makes sherlock very likely to be town for pointing it out. Working from that perspective, i am left with being a bit paranoid of Amrun, but i believe that townslip she made was real. Nacho and Chara might fall a bit from my grace, but even then there is no real reason to push for sparing town!hectic if both are scum. So...

World 1. All hectic spare wagon, including suji who gave intent to hammer, is town. Means the wagon against Asriel was also town. Scum is not pushing for a gamestate change because sparing is bad even if its a town spare (not changing my opinion on this, i still believe that all the sparing rewards are scumsided, despite a balanced math - and we do not know it was a town spare until too late), but a full town mislynch is also very favorable for the scumteam. This world makes sense. A team of Chemist/Psyche would make sense, with Chemist whiteknighting the lurkers generally to hide a soft-defense of his lurker partner.

World 2. One of Nacho/Chara/Amrun is scum with hectic specifically. That means Replica, Chemist, Almidia, Psyche and two out of the aforementioned trio are town (alongside me, suji and sherlock whom i have already talked about). This world makes... a bit less sense, all things considered. I still don't particularly like psyche, i mean - even i, as scum, would instantly townread suji after i realize what sherlock pointed out. Actually, even moreso since i would be 100% sure suji is town, and i would have good reason to wk him. Posts 661 and 665 are a different thing though.

@Psyche, why THAT level of certainty on those slots (#665) - particularly Hectic and Nacho?

World 3. One of Nacho/Chara/Amrun is scum with one of Replica/Chemist/Almidia/Psyche. This is... probably better than world 2, could make sense with scum!Chara unsparing town!hectic at the last minute, in this particular scenario Chara/Psyche is the best team for poor interactions. Nacho/Psyche too, for pretty much the same reasons + that post 665 from Psyche really pings me the wrong way now.

I want to see if Amrun is accountable about that Psyche vote, and Psyche is still very deep in my scumpool even individually. HURT: Psyche

[Farkran]

Replica/Hectic is... reachy, but both the two are kinda pushing in favor of Sparing a bit too much, with "ending the day without consensus" as an excuse for it. Meh. I too wouldn't lynch hectic though, and besides advocating for spare i don't really scumread Replica. Being wrong does not equal being scummy, as the old say goes.

[Replica]

Oh that was another question I missed, my sparing Hectic despite my scumleans Chara/Nacho being on it. I think you're the one who asked it Farkran but I can't remember. #301 and #322 addressed this.

I'll investigate your worlds more deeply in a bit.

in favor of Sparing a bit too much, with "ending the day without consensus" as an excuse for it

? Do you realize how bad it is to boycott decisions as town? Just to illustrate the principle behind it, say 5 town want to spare, 4 town want to lynch, and neither will switch sides. Guess what alignment is guaranteed to get spared/lynched?

[Replica]

Unless you think I'm pushing for a spare because of deadline? That's the force I'm trying to counteract on the other side (Pushing people to place hurt votes because deadline ticking)

[Hectic]

[Replica]

I forgot to answer the one I did remember earlier, which was if I scumread something in your (Farkran's) posts specifically or if you went down for another reason. Answer is that I didn't see anything I dlsliked, but my thoughts shifted in two ways. First, I initially liked your activity/eagerness to give reads, but I increasingly think you're a player who is likely to take that same energy as scum, if not even moreso. The way to deal with this is to delve deeper into the process and pattern of your reads specifically, which will be a project, but hopefully I'll get to it. Second, Chara specifically drastically improved while the rest you leaped I just had lumped into this "I guess they're probably town but it's not a strong feeling and has no solid basis" pile (Sujimichi, Chemist, Amrun)

[Farkran]

Oh that was another question I missed, my sparing Hectic despite my scumleans Chara/Nacho being on it. I think you're the one who asked it Farkran but I can't remember. #301 and #322 addressed this.

I'll investigate your worlds more deeply in a bit.

in favor of Sparing a bit too much, with "ending the day without consensus" as an excuse for it

? Do you realize how bad it is to boycott decisions as town? Just to illustrate the principle behind it, say 5 town want to spare, 4 town want to lynch, and neither will switch sides. Guess what alignment is guaranteed to get spared/lynched?

You are correct in saying that the only thing worse than sparing is leaving the decision to scum, i'll grant you that. It's not like i wouldn't hammer a spare if i was the last active player, 10 minutes before the deadline. But, as i said, i believe we genuinely do not see eye to eye wrt the best route to take - and that makes you probably town, just wrong town. In my personal opinion.

If i started this game from the beginning, i would probably invest a couple pages running setup spec with math & stats, but having to catchup and scumhunt as a replacement in an already established gamestate, i will just insist as much as possible that it's wrong, and i summarized the reasons why i think it is wrong. I hope, at least, that you'd be willing to hammer a fight in reversed positions (4p wants spare, 5p wants lynch). I mean - this line of thinking also literally allows potential scum to go under the radar without even making effort to create false scumreads. All they have to do is push to spare 3 town + their partner, and the whole sparing heaven becomes ratfood.

Pedit incoming

[Amrun]

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

This doesn't mean anything for alignment I'm pretty sure, so I'm going to separate this post, but is painfully ironic from someone who regularly responds to posts without reading them (evidenced by <1 minute timestamps), and has publicly acknowledged not reading the thread.

I do not respond to posts without reading them... what an asinine assertion. How could anyone respond to a post without reading it first? Also, saying early game “hey, haven’t read the thread yet, catching up ASAP” and then doing so is completely and wholly different than trying to lynch someone without reading their ISO enough to realize they’re on v/la. A lot of people seemed to have missed it so maybe it was less obvious than I thought it was, but this post rubs me the wrong way, but not in an alignment way. It’s just annoying.

#274 responds to a gigantic post in a minute. #319 exists, highlighting that you missed it

twice

. #536 says that you hadn't read the thread at the time of (I think) #489. There are valid reasons to do the first, the second was incredibly frustrating but it's not like I don't do the same sometimes, the third is differing in its importance. I found it ironic but I don't think it's AI.

We both think lynching Nacho is awful, granted if lynching becomes imminent he's who I'm voting. As I wrote the above posts, I felt our goals aligned but that difference means their intersection could be a lot nastier than I hoped. Maybe I was too optimistic. Either way, highlighting the irony was unnecessary and I need to go back to not letting my ego take offense at your ego.

You have seriously misunderstood a lot of my posting above. In every one of those instances, that’s not what I was saying. I’m not saying I never make reading mistakes or miss something, as I obviously do, and have in this game and probably every game I’ve ever been in or will be in. But you’re assigning meanings to my posts that don’t exist and don’t make sense to me. For example, I wasn’t saying I hadn’t read the thread then, I was saying between Farkran asking for catchups and clearly having read the thread, I wasn’t even caught up to present in the game myself, so using that as a way to townread people is faulty when a LOT of players weren’t even around at all in that timeframe even more than myself. I didn’t go back and check the timeframes - it could be that I did catch up in that timeframe and forgot. I don’t really care. That’s not the point I was trying to make. Plenty of people weren’t even online in that timeframe. I’m not going to reread the thread 40 times whenever I want to post something. I am a busy professional with a young child and when I post, I’m shooting from the hip because I have 5 minutes in which to do so.

However, I don’t think it’s productive to rehash these things. I think we can both make better efforts to understand the meaning of what was said rather than quibble over semantics.

FWIW I argue with my husband about this same thing all the time.

[Farkran]

I forgot to answer the one I did remember earlier, which was if I scumread something in your (Farkran's) posts specifically or if you went down for another reason. Answer is that I didn't see anything I dlsliked, but my thoughts shifted in two ways. First, I initially liked your activity/eagerness to give reads, but I increasingly think you're a player who is likely to take that same energy as scum, if not even moreso. The way to deal with this is to delve deeper into the process and pattern of your reads specifically, which will be a project, but hopefully I'll get to it. Second, Chara specifically drastically improved while the rest you leaped I just had lumped into this "I guess they're probably town but it's not a strong feeling and has no solid basis" pile (Sujimichi, Chemist, Amrun)

It is true, i am very active and i form readlists as both alignements. This is a reason to have a sane paranoia of my alignment in this game, but it doesn't look like a reason to scumread me - that's was the original meaning of my question.

Wrt the other point, i am townleaning you - not townreading - because you seem to believe what you say, as opposed to making it up. You are more internally consistent than a lot of other slots here, and that USUALLY comes from town players of any kind, or good scum players. I haven't metadived you yet, you are very far from my highest scumreaded slots, but i will hold you accountable if your sparing pattern changes over the days. As i said, a Replica/Hectic solve is very reachy at this point, but neither of you two are completely ruled out. However, unless i have reason to change my mind, you are probably ruled out for today.