Micro 918: Doggos Among Us [TOWN WIN]!

[Espeonage]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

[Espeonage]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

No, also this is feeling kinda gambit-y from clidd.

[Espeonage]

If Clidd is scum, it's with Drew and he's happy to bus him here for the sweet sweet towncred. I don't see scum!Clidd making this play willing to sacrifice himself over hammering a town Drew. That makes no sense.

I don't think clidd actually has any intention to hammer.

[Espeonage]

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

[clidd]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

Hum, no. I keep thinking the same.

[clidd]

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

What is ''Money atm'' ?

[clidd]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

No, also this is feeling kinda gambit-y from clidd.

Gambit would be if I rolled a dice. It is different when you see a read, in fact, as a potential scum.

[clidd]

I think looking for town reads over scum reads is viable in this setup.

Why you town reading Norway?

I agree, I'm not really scumreading anyone which now which is why I'm trying to work off of my townreads.

I'm leaning town on Norwee because I think as town he has a tendency to get pushed early when he's town and his play him mimics his town game decently well. I also need to look back and reevaluate Hectic's push on him.

Also I don't think clidd is new to mafia by any means so I think it's disingenuous to read him under the guise of 'he's a newbie'

By newbie I mean newbie to MS's way of playing. Which I think is reiterated by the hot garbage logic he has displayed. Like could be proven wrong tho. But I feel pretty happy with the level of effort I have seen.

Hum, ok.

[clidd]

I still don't understand Clidd at all, I don't even understand his case on me and what it's based on.

And Hectic, I wish I was nuanced enough to make that play.

What are your reads ?

[clidd]

Probably not, but imagine that lul. Anyway, I'm V/LA mostly for the rest of today.

When you come back, i want to see your read on Espeonage.

[clidd]

Like i understand why people want to wait and not rush a hammer, but i don’t think it makes Clidd scummy for it. Being eager to vote a scumread is one of those town behaviours that seem scummy on the purpose, but really isn’t.

In a world where we're playing a normal mafia game, this is true but with this setup scum can just win today if they can get town to hammer another town, which is why town should be a bit more cautious with who they're voting and why.

Also from my experience, Drew is a player who is frequently mislynched early in games. I'm not saying that definitively makes him town since I have no opinion on his alignment whatsoever, but that knowledge combined with shallow reasons for lynching him make me hesitant to join this wagon.

Can you quote a game in which he was mislynched early ?

[clidd]

If Clidd is scum, it's with Drew and he's happy to bus him here for the sweet sweet towncred. I don't see scum!Clidd making this play willing to sacrifice himself over hammering a town Drew. That makes no sense.

I don't think clidd actually has any intention to hammer.

Are you sure ? if i built my read around him being scum, i don't see why would I choose someone else to hammer.

[clidd]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

Actually, you used ten times the word ''

think

'', which is ironic given the term

''hot trash logic''

used in post 224. Apparently, you discredit many of the points I mentioned, but are still impartial when commenting on them ? unconsciously, you're not sure about what you're saying.

[Espeonage]

I have started using think bc people kept getting mad at them for being too argumentative by flat out telling people they were wrong, which I do believe you are here.

[Espeonage]

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

What is ''Money atm'' ?

If I was going to make a bet my money would be on Norway, clidd, and djester as the three scum.

[Espeonage]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

No, also this is feeling kinda gambit-y from clidd.

Gambit would be if I rolled a dice. It is different when you see a read, in fact, as a potential scum.

You are thinking random not gambit. A gambit is where you present something but it is actually the opposite or a trap.

So I am saying that you really had no intention of hammering but were saying you intended to try and grab town credit but would back out later.

[clidd]

I have started using think bc people kept getting mad at them for being too argumentative by flat out telling people they were wrong, which I do believe you are here.

Interesting to see this from someone I consider

indicative scum

. It makes sense that you disagree.

[clidd]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

No, also this is feeling kinda gambit-y from clidd.

Gambit would be if I rolled a dice. It is different when you see a read, in fact, as a potential scum.

You are thinking random not gambit. A gambit is where you present something but it is actually the opposite or a trap.

So I am saying that you really had no intention of hammering but were saying you intended to try and grab town credit but would back out later.

What is "random", from your point of view ?

[clidd]

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

What is ''Money atm'' ?

If I was going to make a bet my money would be on Norway, clidd, and djester as the three scum.

This read was done under the influence of internal chemical reactions.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

I agree with clidd and Norwee atm, Espeonage, but why Doro?

[Hectic]

If Clidd is scum, it's with Drew and he's happy to bus him here for the sweet sweet towncred. I don't see scum!Clidd making this play willing to sacrifice himself over hammering a town Drew. That makes no sense.

I don't think clidd actually has any intention to hammer.

Hmm, I thought Doro's vote on Drew was the third, so clidd only needed one other person to vote before hammering after his unvote. But that was only the second, which makes it a lot less risky gambit-wise actually, since it's unlikely two people would come along and vote Drew and advocate clidd to hammer.

[Hectic]

But I feel pretty happy with the level of effort I have seen.

Is this you saying clidd is town from effort despite you disliking his logic?

[Hectic]

I still don't understand Clidd at all, I don't even understand his case on me and what it's based on.

And Hectic, I wish I was nuanced enough to make that play.

No need to play yourself down, Drew; you're one the best on your day.



Give us a shotgun reads list when you come back pls.

[Hectic]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

Hum, no. I keep thinking the same.

Is this you saying you disagree with ALL of his points in that post?

Probably not, but imagine that lul. Anyway, I'm V/LA mostly for the rest of today.

When you come back, i want to see your read on Espeonage.

Decent

, so far.