Micro 918: Doggos Among Us [TOWN WIN]!

[Hectic]

Why'd you like Doro for town, Norwee?

I've played a bunch of newbie games lately and he's giving me very strong newb!town vibes. And i've had a very strong consistency with those reads.

Idk, I skimmed through this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

-and he did a lot more solving there, whereas here, it feels like he's using the slip-hunting thing as an excuse to do less solving.

Did you skim through his ISO here, Norwee?

[Hectic]

Not to brag or anything, but that's

5

(unintentional) PageTops in a row.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I legit just looked at Espeonage’s ISO, but thought i was on Djstjr and was thinking "wait, why did i townread this guy again? This is terrible!" But then i realized my mistake.
Attempt at solving while on my phone in bed at 12 AM is quite the experience.

[clidd]

Yeah can you explain that post Clidd? What were you getting at there?

I see no benefit in suggesting that, even with our own established reads, we should be suspicious of them and go back to step zero. Especially when we were, in a way, starting to align some reads. Opportunistic.

Meta is evil and is shown time and time again to be inherently flawed. Any case that involves meta is a flawed case. I end up talking about this every game I play and I always insist on ignoring any meta tells anyone has. And somehow?!? I end up winning a lot of games as town after taking this line of argument.

Examples of individual experience can be used as a auxiliary base, but never generalized. Affirming that the meta is ''flawed'' without presenting statistical references to prove it, mischaracterizes the argument and makes it a fallacy.

Btw Espeonage, how do you expect any lynch to happen at all unless some of the town members form a so called: "clique" and succesfully target scum? (Although i'd most likely substitute the word "clique" with "temporary alliance")

I expect people to form reads with thought, not with emotions.

Emotions are part of human behavior and influence their actions. Failure to consider them will decrease your judgment accuracy. An example would be the rage scenario, which can only be correctly detected through emotions, such as empathy to perceive the other is, in fact, expressing anger at the oscillation in his typing.

Like this game if effectively 50/50.

You need to be really sure of a town read for it to hold any weight.

Like it's 4v3. I am town, so the other players are 3v3.

This reasoning seems prone to paranoia.

Mafia as a game IS prone to paranoia. Like what even?

Even so, emphasizing this side diminishes collective confidence. This game cannot be won alone, it is a group game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ok so i compared the two Hectic. And my conclusion is that Djstjr is playing how i expect a town player moving up from the newbie league to a more "experienced" sort of game would be playing. So i think the fact that he’s showing slightly less confidence here is a town indicative thing and thusly i wouldn’t say he’s scum based on difference with his townplay in the newbie game you linked.

[dsjstr]

Clidd's read list:

Spoiler:

Good afternoon.

Yesterday, although I wanted to continue, the rest option was more pleasant for the moment, considering that my mind needed a ''refresh''. Today, upon waking, I enjoyed the opportunity to make a brief reading of the last comments, and did some additions to my notes. It is good to see that everyone managed to share a little of their own opinions and, consequently, demonstrate that they still care about the outcome of the match. But, as we all know, there are three players among us that need to be located and eliminated, in favor of our condition of victory. With that said and with a good cup of coffee in hand, I would like to introduce my partial read of the observations I wrote down throughout the game:

Setup Specific Rules
*There is one Wolf goon and two traitors.
*There is no scum chat.
*For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well.
*Traitors are only endgamed if they are all lynched. In other words, if the wolf is lynched, they still can win by being the majority.
*The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are.
*This game is nightless
*If you are confused about anything ingame, please don't hesitate to question me, and if I deem it worthy enough, I'll add your question to this wall of game specific rules.
*Day Phases will last approximately 10 days. If a consensus of who to lynch isn't reached, then the player that has reached the most amount of votes first will be lynched.


Le Roles
4 Vanilla Townies
1 Werewolf Goon
2 Werewolf Traitors

The first thing i noticed, after entering the room, were the specifications that characterize the setup, with five peculiar points:

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Given the comments on the rules, i will proceed to the posts:

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

The theory I created about the post above disregarded any interpersonal traits about Norwiegan's personality, considering the possibility of being a biased act. The use of caps lock further enhances this ''fabricated'' attention, allowing for a deliberate misread and providing a safe vote, without much contestation, as it delivers a plausible motivation to be suspicious. However, as i noticed in his response to my advances in 94. Unconsciously, he seemed genuinely uncomfortable with my pseudo-accusations, which i used as a tool of controlled pressure, precisely to get a sudden response. I don't think he is, in fact, lock-scum, mainly because of the empathy i had when observing his read about me, as mentioned in 117.

VOTE: Norwee

Vote: Norway

VOTE: Norwegian

Hectic, Espeonage and Dsjstr started a wagon, encouraged by the content that, to common sense, seemed justifiable to condemn, or at least, pressure. Judging by the time of execution of the votes, which took place from 7-6 posts, respectively, the information processing and decision making time was very similar, something that i consider as a sign of doubt about Doctor Drew's vote ( 13), which curiously, diverged from the common opinion and is present between posts 12 and 18. In other words, he was unaffected by the first comment because of a pre-established response, that guided his vote.

Probably a scum response.

(L-1 on Norwee)

I consider this post interesting, not only for his concern, but also for his veracity. If we look closely, there was a 13 minute delay to respond to the third vote (18), however, I noticed that he posted one minute after the announcement, progressing on a scale ranging from 3, 5 and 2, until he finished his sequence of posts 2 minutes before sending post 20 here. In other words, close to the time when the third vote was confirmed, he was already typing in another topic, where he remained until 2 minutes before his answer here, showing that this was the time he navigated from one topic to the other, confirming his concern about a possible accidental hammer.

S-sorry to bother you. Any opinion on Norwee's case on him?

I think Norwee has a valid point about clidd being a little too confident on his read and basing his solving around Norwee being scum. It doesn't really 'feel' intentional though or at least it feels non-malicious, I think it's more of a subconscious thing and I don't see his tone as hostile like Norwee said it was.

I think I'm also gonna go with a weakish townlean on Norwee at the moment just because I think town!Norwee has a tendency to take heat early like what's happening here.

Although i don't appreciate the explicit indecision present in Aaron's posts, and see his characteristic of impartiality, in this context, as a way to avoid having to take a side (a scum attitude), i believe that his questioning, partially puzzled, led to him to reconsider the aspects that structured his read, so it is still too early to definitively formulate an opinion on him. I hope that i can, effectively, determine his alignment next day.

To my understanding for D1 if a wolf hammers then they die even if they are hammering a wolf, I meant that if someone hammers D1 and they don't die they have to be town. Am I understanding the rule correctly?

I'm probably trying too hard to find the wolves slip up, it just seems like an obvious way to catch a mafia.

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

Go ahead

I was thinking the werewolf has all the knowledge and the traitors have enough to be able to figure out who the other traitor is. I talked about the signal being between you and Drew the first time because I see RVS as the time to get away with signalling by voting. I could really look at any interaction and claim it is signalling but I like coming up with theories like that.

He seems to try, as far as possible, to actively engage in the development of the case. I do not consider him as an innocent newbie, mainly because of his doubts, suggestively forced, as if try to justify himself by the mantle of ''inexperienced'', lowering himself in the process to gain empathy for others. His town-slips are unlikely to be authentic.

I have two soft town reads, one soft scum read. So I am happy to vote within my unsorted pool bc if I am right it only includes one town and if we are voting on both we can't lose out day 1 with it.

So my Lynch pool is djester, DD, Norway, and aron.

I am willing to give a soft af town read to Aaron for caring my opinion.

So I am happy to get one of those three to hammer one of the others. Prefs for Norway to be included. Still feel his early game is scum indicative. Anyone got opinions about this?

I admire the inaccuracy in my read about you, considering that, naturally, due to your style of play, I tend to read it as null. You are vaguely well-intentioned, but i think that a slightly more aggressive approach would drastically change my opinion of you (early, of course).

With that said, this would be my distribution:

Dsjstr -

Scum indicative

Hectic -

Joker

(Can flip both sides)
Doctor Drew -

Scum indicative

NorwieganboyEE -

Town indicative

AaronFrost -

Town indicative

Espeonage -

Scum indicative

Particualrly, i would like to lynch

Doctor Drew

or

Dsjstr

today. If my partial read did not please the public, i am prepared for the case of being voted. But, obviously, im selecting the person who will hammer me. In both scenarios, we will lynch a scum.

If i'm gonna get lynched for a stupid reason then at least i'd want to take scum with me. And i don't like your thick-headed approach this game Hectic.

I don't see a wolf wanting to get lynched because it takes away the possibility for a D2 lylo, Norwegian was fine with getting lynched as long as their scum read did the hammering. That made me believe he was town and that Hectic wanted me or doc to hammer in order to get a wolf win.

Only problem with that theory is that it would require Hectic being the wolf goon since that's the only one who knows who all the scum are.

Are we reading the same game? Because Norwee does not sound like he's okay with getting lynched at all.

What happened to your Drew read? You had him in your bottom two earlier and now you're saying that Hectic would want you

or Drew

to hammer for a wolf win which would require both of you being town hammering another town.

Are you saying that hectic is not the wolf goon?

After Aaron's comment about how my theory was wrong because it would require Hectic to be the wolf goon, I started piecing the puzzle together. If clidd is the werewolf then it explains his early read list, and the fact that he had Aaron as town even

though there wasn't great evidence for it. I keep going back to the time when clidd agreed to hammer Doc and the fact that Aaron was the person who said he would not agree to join the wagon. The reason he gave was because he didn't see a reason

and wanted to wait until his V/LA ended. It also conveniently prevented clidd from not having to hammer. I have no idea who the third person could be, looking at clidds reads Hectic/Norwegian and possibly trying to pocket the other. The third person

doesn't matter, I'd go with Aaron hammering Clidd.

p-edit: ummmm just a guess Norwegian

[NorwegianboyEE]

Clidd i find myself agreeing with your posts a lot.
If you were given the opportunity right bow, who would you lynch first from your scumreads?

[clidd]

Doctor Drew, he doesn't fool me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

p-edit: ummmm just a guess Norwegian

?

[clidd]

Mathematically speaking, Dsjstr and Espeonage can still contribute, in a way. But that guy smells rotten from daystart.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Aaronfrost and Drew both seem a bit toned down from how i’d picture their towngame to be.

[dsjstr]

p-edit: ummmm just a guess Norwegian

?

As I was typing my read list you said that I seemed town because of my lack of confidence, so I was making a joke.

[Espeonage]

Ok clidd, if you want to go meta dive me, do it. Enjoy the fact that I regularly manipulate my meta when both town and scum to effective make me unreadable by that method. You ill also find the many arguments I had with multiple people as multiple alignments about how terrible meta is and how I believe that if you are readable by meta you deserve to be modelled for trust tells.

I know that I can't institute it, but I am very outspoken in how much I despise anyone building or even including meta in their cases. If you have readable meta and do not ACTIVELY work to make it obsolete you should not be playing mafia.

[Espeonage]

And sure you can read emotionally. I read in to people's emotions all the time. But town reading people because they town read you and scum reading people because they scum read you is lazy and negligent.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ok clidd, if you want to go meta dive me, do it. Enjoy the fact that I regularly manipulate my meta when both town and scum to effective make me unreadable by that method. You ill also find the many arguments I had with multiple people as multiple alignments about how terrible meta is and how I believe that if you are readable by meta you deserve to be modelled for trust tells.

I know that I can't institute it, but I am very outspoken in how much I despise anyone building or even including meta in their cases. If you have readable meta and do not ACTIVELY work to make it obsolete you should not be playing mafia.

Ummm... when did Clidd say he was going to meta dive you?

[NorwegianboyEE]

And sure you can read emotionally. I read in to people's emotions all the time. But town reading people because they town read you and scum reading people because they scum read you is lazy and negligent.

If you think that’s all i’ve been doing then you are dumb.

[Hectic]

Ok clidd, if you want to go meta dive me, do it. Enjoy the fact that I regularly manipulate my meta when both town and scum to effective make me unreadable by that method. You ill also find the many arguments I had with multiple people as multiple alignments about how terrible meta is and how I believe that if you are readable by meta you deserve to be modelled for trust tells.

I know that I can't institute it, but I am very outspoken in how much I despise anyone building or even including meta in their cases. If you have readable meta and do not ACTIVELY work to make it obsolete you should not be playing mafia.

I mean, you can work to make it obsolete, and not succeed in that - which most people don't. Btw, why do I read poorly for using meta? Sure, you disagree with it's use, but are you saying you think it's scum-indicative when I used it earlier?

[NorwegianboyEE]

This "i am the best at solving with my methods and you guys suck and are bad at the game if you don’t do what i do" attittude is the kind of elitist BS that really pisses me off in this site.

[Hectic]

Ok so i compared the two Hectic. And my conclusion is that Djstjr is playing how i expect a town player moving up from the newbie league to a more "experienced" sort of game would be playing. So i think the fact that he’s showing slightly less confidence here is a town indicative thing and thusly i wouldn’t say he’s scum based on difference with his townplay in the newbie game you linked.

Hmmmm, maybe. His recent post is pretty towny though, that kind of nuanced speculation is good.

[Hectic]

This "i am the best at solving with my methods and you guys suck and are bad at the game if you don’t do what i do" attittude is the kind of elitist BS that really pisses me off in this site.

Lul, true tbh, but mafia's a argumentative/emotional game. I'm used it by now.

[Hectic]

*used to it by now

Drew, you need to get in here soon if you wanna avoid being policy.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FYI i saw Drew online but he didn’t post anything.

[Hectic]

Maybe we should go back to the Clidd hammering Drew plan.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Maybe Drew is emulating his cultist recruiter meta.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Btw i’m going to start using meta for my arguments a ton from here on, purely to make Espeonage mad.