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Spider Donut

[popsofctown]

I beat Hard Mode last night. I am done for real now.

[Chara]

Farkran: to answer you from earlier about Hectic, the town motivation is to extend the day and hopefully get more content out of the replacements, which did happen.
you're the one who said that scum being spared is the worst, worst outcome, so it follows that it's the best outcome for scum. deciding to delay his sparing for shaky towncred, or to hunt for the FN, is risky and gives the opportunity for the TR on him to wane.

[Chara]

Well, looks like it's about to toss my computer out the window, so much for keeping my content accessible when what the people really want is incomprehensible garbage and a lot of it.

This isn't a statement on this game, just a statement on the state of modern consumerism.

for what it's worth, i really appreciate your attention to keeping the thread readable and avoiding overwhelming it.

i'm not entirely sure what this was in direct response to though.

[Psyche]

even after the towntell, several including you insisted that sujimichi wasn't plainly town while i did. you were wrong.

before the towntell, farkran read sujimichi and sherlock as scum. both those reads were wrong (and the psyche read is wrong too). farkran's track record on reads in general this game is pretty sorry and invites self-reflection. in my experience we won't see it even after the game is done and flips are finished.

otoh i'm pretty sure every read i've committed to (averred confidence in) so far and beyond will turn out right. at least i have a lot of fun committing to implausible shit like that. ahh the rush in self-aware conceit

these are both just side points but i make em because i'm comically insecure and felt slighted about my play. i should be more chill and cool and friendly — or at least a bit more focused i mean cmon

im so sorry for most everything leading up to this post though seriously and will go get some sleep

[Chara]

As opposed to... what? Distracted, inconsistent, inconclusive play? Or what else do you read as towny in a player, when trying to townhunt?

Tell me why and where i am wrong.

the problem is all of these things you've listed are more often personality traits than alignment indicators.

townhunting involves pushing players for interactions that allow you to conclusively say "no way scum behaves in this way". i'm not sure why i developed this way as a player, but it was probably in reaction to scumreads and wagons born of players making mistakes/being wrong about something, rather than being scum.
you can catch bad scum by looking for inconsistency or contradiction. you can't really catch good scum.

i'm no paragon, though, so feel free not to take the advice.

[Chara]

Psyche: i assume the apology isn't to me, but i think you're fine and should sleep.

and 1079 is really town.

[Chara]

all your reads seem super wrong

while there are just some weird contradictions in your reasoning (for example you quote a post where i acknowledge where scum will kill townclears, but elsewhere you say i don't consider that consensus townreads are gonna die kinda weird), in general i think the systemic problem with the way you develop reads is that you associate towniness far too readily w/ tight, cautious, analytical, thorough play - or more specifically w/ play and positioning like yours

think that's the lesson you'll hopefully pick up once the game's all said and done

i have to agree here, if Farkran is town this is the problem i'm having. i'm not convinced of that however.

i had a problem with Psyche's focus on Sujimichi (and his being right on Suji and Sherlock) but i don't hate the rest of the content. i don't think we're the same type of player (and for some reason i think i've had a negative opinion of Psyche's attitude this game) but i do think we form townreads in a similar way.

messed up the quote in the quoted post.

my pedit asking Psyche to explain again in a different way should have been at the bottom of my post.
but i'm less concerned with that at this point.

[Psyche]

as an offering to show my renewed commitment to player solidarity i will express a read on chara:

[Farkran]

i'm undecided on Psyche. speaking of, it's hindsighty because you referenced Sujimichi's actions pre-claim and pre-Sherlock's tell, and so now that we know Sujimichi is town you can go back and say "look, i was right in this townread, you all should have seen it then as well", when i don't agree that Suji was obvtown enough to say anyone scumreading them deserves a scumlean. to go back to an earlier point, scum correctly call town town all the time.
i'm guessing your Amrun (and someone else i've forgotten) scumreads come from Sujimichi in some way?

i'd also like a read on me.

my list has changed, sure. i don't think it's fair to say i'm tunneling you either, Farkran. tunnel-vision implies i'm both looking nowhere else and considering nothing else.

...who's the first part of this post directed at? You seem to be answering my question with regards to psyche, but everything else sounds like you're talking to psyche himself. I did not townread sujimichi. He was far from obvtown to me, and if we remove the townslip and the claim i still think he would have scum equity. Similar to psyche though, once i realized what the townslip was about, i immediately felt there was no ambiguity about it and that's one point i would credit psyche - if only he wasn't as adamant about town!suji as he was shaky and flaily about pretty much everyone else. but i'd have to compare that read to the Hectic/Chara/Replica trio + Psyche now. I am also not scumreading Amrun, although we can talk about it (@psyche, you too).

I am currently scumreading you though. Hectic/Chara is my best guess at a solve for this game at this point in time. Even if i take for genuine that you townread Hectic when he "complained" about refusing to be hammered by suji, Hectic's own reaction about your unvote sounded like awful distancing upon rereading the exchange. Why would Hectic scumread you after you switch your vote, only to backpedal on it when you start townreading him again? Why didn't that reaction strike you as odd? It literally didn't ring any bell to you, so much that you immediately entered d2 with a heal vote on him. I don't buy this.

By the way i'd like to hear your new list, because last time i checked i was your only scumread and i still have a fight vote from you - i have yet to understand the real reasons behind it, besides you siding with Replica in the 1v1 he had with me, which i'll say once again it makes no sense since i was arguing with him for the same reasons you pointed out way earlier in d1. I think i have hit a nerve somewhere, trying to sort where - but it's clear that the group i've been hitting with my scumreads are now scumreading me in return for very little reasons.

Except psyche - i am having a bit more trouble sorting psyche. He's individually scummy, but i don't feel he's pushing me. Rather, he's mocking me. I have seen this coming from town more than i've seen from scum, although it's nowhere near a clear.

[Farkran]

and on partners: i don't do preflip partner analysis. waste of time and not in my skillset.

So... you're praising the value of scumhunting, yet you don't do "preflip" partner analysis. When are we supposed to flip someone, in your opinion?

[Psyche]

Rather, he's mocking me.

i dont mean to be this sort of person

[Chara]

why would i, from my perspective, think Hectic's vote on me was distancing? that doesn't make any sense. it looked like he reacted to my unvote and then later reconsidered when i posted more about it and other things in general. it sounds like you gave the turn of events right there. he scumread my vote switch, and then reconsidered after further events. that's not weird, that's reacting to a thing that happened. what the hell else am i going to think?

and

again

, stop saying that i "townread him again". there is

nowhere

in my ISO that says i stopped townreading him, and i've already explained it was a case of finding Replica very towny (townier than Hectic at that point).

in 1071, the first sentence is to you. the rest is to Psyche. except for the last sentence which was to you again. sorry for being unclear.

[Chara]

and on partners: i don't do preflip partner analysis. waste of time and not in my skillset.

So... you're praising the value of scumhunting, yet you don't do "preflip" partner analysis. When are we supposed to flip someone, in your opinion?

um... when we scumread them? and then if they flip scum i'll go partner hunting. not before.

[Farkran]

Farkran: to answer you from earlier about Hectic, the town motivation is to extend the day and hopefully get more content out of the replacements, which did happen.
you're the one who said that scum being spared is the worst, worst outcome, so it follows that it's the best outcome for scum. deciding to delay his sparing for shaky towncred, or to hunt for the FN, is risky and gives the opportunity for the TR on him to wane.

Oh, i'm sure the townread consensus on him waned immensely, given that all people who were townreading him yesterday are still townreading him today - that is, assuming the almighty math gods will allow Replica to pursue that, but he did claim Hectic is still his highest townread if i recall correct. You are healing him, psyche is inclined to heal him. No one is scumreading him except for myself. And i have yet to understand why. I do not see any town motivation in extending the day, if the chosen route was to be 4-spared as he claimed it would be today.

[Farkran]

even after the towntell, several including you insisted that sujimichi wasn't plainly town while i did. you were wrong.

before the towntell, farkran read sujimichi and sherlock as scum. both those reads were wrong (and the psyche read is wrong too). farkran's track record on reads in general this game is pretty sorry and invites self-reflection. in my experience we won't see it even after the game is done and flips are finished.

otoh i'm pretty sure every read i've committed to (averred confidence in) so far and beyond will turn out right. at least i have a lot of fun committing to implausible shit like that. ahh the rush in self-aware conceit

these are both just side points but i make em because i'm comically insecure and felt slighted about my play. i should be more chill and cool and friendly — or at least a bit more focused i mean cmon

im so sorry for most everything leading up to this post though seriously and will go get some sleep

Yet you don't seem to be scumreading me. As i said, you seem to be mocking me, which leads me to believe you think i am unusually bad as town, rather than scum. Would you rather that i sheep you, the comically insecure player who is, however, overconfident about all his townreads (for no reason at all except possibly TMI) enough to push a 4-spared route which incidentally also includes himself?

[Chara]

By the way i'd like to hear your new list, because last time i checked i was your only scumread and i still have a fight vote from you - i have yet to understand the real reasons behind it, besides you siding with Replica in the 1v1 he had with me, which i'll say once again it makes no sense since i was arguing with him for the same reasons you pointed out way earlier in d1. I think i have hit a nerve somewhere, trying to sort where - but it's clear that the group i've been hitting with my scumreads are now scumreading me in return for very little reasons.

the crux of my read on you is deciding whether this is a playstyle issue or a scum issue. Psyche said it nicely in the post i quoted earlier. it has to do with your reliance on consistency, contradiction, being "right", things like that. it has to do with how you don't seem willing to consider anything to be innocuous, like changing a read based on a feeling or thread information, but rather some evidence of scum who is being inconsistent. in my experience players who cling to that are more often scum than not.

and i am definitely feeling annoyed but that's more on me than with you.
it feels like you don't read the posts you quote very deeply, or don't try to understand them any more deeply than plainly stated things, and you keep repeating things that are incorrect (that status of my Hectic read throughout the game, for example). even reading that now i'm wondering if you wouldn't mind linking me to a recent town and a recent scumgame, because i think it'd help.

and now i'm getting too conscious of my wording and trying to be unambiguous. it gets frustrating when i repeatedly say i don't scumread you for your 1v1 with Replica, but rather the way you did it/the things you've focused on this game, and then you repeat again that the reason i actually scumread you has to do with

Replica's math or choosing to spare or fight.

that underlined part above is my interpretation of what your 1v1 with Replica was about. please read this post with that in mind. i'm trying not to be confusing.

[Farkran]

As opposed to... what? Distracted, inconsistent, inconclusive play? Or what else do you read as towny in a player, when trying to townhunt?

Tell me why and where i am wrong.

the problem is all of these things you've listed are more often personality traits than alignment indicators.

townhunting involves pushing players for interactions that allow you to conclusively say "no way scum behaves in this way". i'm not sure why i developed this way as a player, but it was probably in reaction to scumreads and wagons born of players making mistakes/being wrong about something, rather than being scum.

you can catch bad scum by looking for inconsistency or contradiction. you can't really catch good scum

.

Oh, thanks. I assume you just called me town, because the alternative would be being the worst scum player in this playerlist since i am your only scumread and your only fight vote ever since this game has started. Or is this still about asriel? You were on his wagon, after all. Sarcasm aside, i am still looking for your reason to scumread Farkran - not asriel. I asked you several times, but every time i do, the answer seems revolving around my 1v1 with Replica and i cannot make any sense out of that.

pedit: i just want to point out that i'm still catching up and answering old posts, not reading those people are making in-between mine. I'll get to those once i am finished.

[Chara]

Farkran: to answer you from earlier about Hectic, the town motivation is to extend the day and hopefully get more content out of the replacements, which did happen.
you're the one who said that scum being spared is the worst, worst outcome, so it follows that it's the best outcome for scum. deciding to delay his sparing for shaky towncred, or to hunt for the FN, is risky and gives the opportunity for the TR on him to wane.

Oh, i'm sure the townread consensus on him waned immensely, given that all people who were townreading him yesterday are still townreading him today - that is, assuming the almighty math gods will allow Replica to pursue that, but he did claim Hectic is still his highest townread if i recall correct. You are healing him, psyche is inclined to heal him. No one is scumreading him except for myself. And i have yet to understand why. I do not see any town motivation in extending the day, if the chosen route was to be 4-spared as he claimed it would be today.

1) extending the day gives us more information and input from replacements, instead of just a consensus spare and little input from a lot of dead slots. this is a good thing. do you agree or disagree?

2) scum being spared is very bad for town. do you agree or disagree with that? given that, what is most important for scum to do?

3) Hectic's position today (three townreads on him, 4 votes to spare him counting Hectic himself) is not proof against it being risky in the first place. to use an analogy, it's dangerous to jump off a cliff into shallow, rocky water. many people do this anyway. they survived, so that must mean it isn't a risky thing to do.
except it of course still is, but looking for proof in the successes is not how you find the risk. you do that by looking at the water and the height of the cliff.

i really doubt i'm going to convince you on this at this point, but there you go.

[Farkran]

why would i, from my perspective, think Hectic's vote on me was distancing? that doesn't make any sense. it looked like he reacted to my unvote and then later reconsidered when i posted more about it and other things in general. it sounds like you gave the turn of events right there. he scumread my vote switch, and then reconsidered after further events. that's not weird, that's reacting to a thing that happened. what the hell else am i going to think?

How is it possible that Hectic's omgus vote on you literally didn't ring any alarm bell to you? In what universe does town!Hectic scumread you for removing your vote on him when even you said that his purpose was to extend the day? What kind of reasoning is this?

[Amrun]

this is important so i'll repeat it. pursuing both spares and fights seriously is more valuable than only pursuing spares, even if you ultimately want a spare.

Psyche has some short walls, that's exciting.
regarding being cagey about towncasing: i still don't know if it will do more harm than good.

i do scumread Farkran but i don't love Psyche's angle of "anyone not hard townreading Sujimichi from his play should have been" because it's both hindsighty and silly to expect everyone will read him the same way.

I keep flip flopping my read on Farkran, like, day to day. Right now I feel like he’s pushing in a way that seems he believes it, which is towny. Tomorrow I’ll change my mind.

[Chara]

As opposed to... what? Distracted, inconsistent, inconclusive play? Or what else do you read as towny in a player, when trying to townhunt?

Tell me why and where i am wrong.

the problem is all of these things you've listed are more often personality traits than alignment indicators.

townhunting involves pushing players for interactions that allow you to conclusively say "no way scum behaves in this way". i'm not sure why i developed this way as a player, but it was probably in reaction to scumreads and wagons born of players making mistakes/being wrong about something, rather than being scum.

you can catch bad scum by looking for inconsistency or contradiction. you can't really catch good scum

.

Oh, thanks. I assume you just called me town, because the alternative would be being the worst scum player in this playerlist since i am your only scumread and your only fight vote ever since this game has started. Or is this still about asriel? You were on his wagon, after all. Sarcasm aside, i am still looking for your reason to scumread Farkran - not asriel. I asked you several times, but every time i do, the answer seems revolving around my 1v1 with Replica and i cannot make any sense out of that.

pedit: i just want to point out that i'm still catching up and answering old posts, not reading those people are making in-between mine. I'll get to those once i am finished.

i'll just reply to the first part then since the other should be addressed when you read it.

as for the first part, what? you really misread what i'm saying here. i said you can't catch bad scum by only looking for contradictions, my point being that good scum are better at avoiding contradictions in their posting. i have no idea what this has to do with my vote on you, considering i was talking about hypothetical hunting strategies, and the bolded is not in any way how i hunt in the first place.

[Farkran]

townreads are my strong suite more than anything.
i've been thinking about this while i've been working.

what

is

the main thrust of your Hectic read, Nacho? i agree he's towny, in that he is engaging with the game and giving reads that make sense, but i don't know if that's worthy of an absolute locktown read.

i know we only have a day left, which is unfortunate, but in terms of spare targets i am most sure of, it would be Replica more than anything.

HEAL: Replica
there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.

Hectic isn't a bad spare either, but i am curious what makes him so locktown to you.

and alimdia, i asked you what reads you thought were missing. i'm pretty sure i've given my thoughts whenever it's relevant.

napstablook here...
here's some random thoughts from my phone...
really regret telling Sujimichi not to hammer earlier...
realise now that we should've let the SPARE happen rather than risk it falling apart... oh well...
replica and sherlock both feel like town...
chara i'm having doubts on after looking through her ISO...

she parked a SPARE on us while not really giving us the impression she townread us with the way she asked us questions/talked about us and questioned Nacho's read...
and the timing of her SPARE vote change after alimdia said he would hammer soon feels like she would rather have someone be (mis)lynched instead...

alimdia also feels slightly off but then we saw his flurry of posts for his reads list were minutes apart...
think it's really hard to fake those so quickly unless he prepared the posts beforehand which is unlikely...
we still like sujimichi he feels very honest...
we're more confident in SPARING over FIGHTING overall...
sherlock or sujimichi are both fine we think...
replica as the third option...
@popsofctown: our FIGHT vote should be on Psyche we believe

not really feeling up to this but i checked farkran...
like him as well so wouldn't FIGHT there today...
agree with some of his recent thoughts...
only person am semi confident in fighting is chara for now...
will leave it as an option but would still prefer to SPARE...
psyche slot is nullscum...
HURT: Chara

only 36 hours....

Hectic spare is one i'm most confident with. i'm torn between that as the safest option and wanting to pursue something to lead to a flip.
i do TR Sujimichi. i think i believe them about what they said in the previous game, in that they would not take ongoing games into account, so i won't take that as a clear but rather as a testament to Sujimichi's own commitment to not referring to ongoing games, which i agree with and have in fact done in the past. to be clear, i'm referring to making comments such as "i haven't been scum in a while" to a scumpartner, whilst scum in an ongoing game. ongoing games don't exist, so i find it perfectly valid. lying by omission is necessary, in fact.

i'm not sure why Psyche finds this so hard to believe, actually.

i'm not sure why i feel so cautious about the lynch. in a regular game, you simply do the best you can with your day 1 lynch because you have to, but all of the discussion surrounding optimal action has me overthinking it.
day 1 scum lynches lose games after all, ahaha.

HURT: unvote
i may have been wrong about Chara...
but i am a little suspicious...
i'm still hiding from her after we started playing hide and seek and she still hasn't found me...
maybe scum-indicative...?

Though I would LOVE to show some of the people here the TRUE nature of this world, we have a wealth of information from yesterday to push home 3 more SPAREs on town. Ugh.
Replica and Chara are good places to start. Chara's late posting yesterday was very townie, and I'm particularly townreading her for how she townread us due to her logic of us "being annoyed at telling Sujimichi to not hammer and openly admitting that", it feels like one of the more genuine reasons to townread us I've seen this game.

I mean what's this progression? Can anyone explain to me how Hectic goes from scumleaning Chara due to its ISO, fight it as his only fight-worthy vote, then enter d2 with a spare-worthy townread of Chara? What the hell is that?

[Chara]

why would i, from my perspective, think Hectic's vote on me was distancing? that doesn't make any sense. it looked like he reacted to my unvote and then later reconsidered when i posted more about it and other things in general. it sounds like you gave the turn of events right there. he scumread my vote switch, and then reconsidered after further events. that's not weird, that's reacting to a thing that happened. what the hell else am i going to think?

How is it possible that Hectic's omgus vote on you literally didn't ring any alarm bell to you? In what universe does town!Hectic scumread you for removing your vote on him when even you said that his purpose was to extend the day? What kind of reasoning is this?

because town get paranoid...? they react in response to actions?

do you scumread every single player that votes you? i understand what gave him the thought to vote me. it isn't like he started tunneling me after that. i don't know how to say it any more plainly that i don't expect every town player to make perfect logical leaps like "Chara must have unvoted me to extend the day" when i might not have made that clear . i don't remember if i did.
there's something fundamental here about how mafia isn't so black and white but i don't know how to even begin discussing it more than i already have.

[Amrun]

Thanks, Chara, for having the patience to point out the flaws in Farkran’s thinking FMPOV. I do not have that patience lately.

It’s remarkable how in sync I am with Chara in this moment which is major townpoints in my book.