Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Farkran]

and these are genuine requests. it feels good to be back and to have people calling me town and saying that they're glad to see me but i think the game cracks open pretty solidly with a chemist lynch.
i feel the {Hectic, Psyche, Farkan, Chara} core is a pretty solid one and am open to prodding at those four.

i'm still gonna reread in the meantime but i'm high on life and ready to take a shot at living the dream so am more than happy to procrastinate on finishing on the read in the meantime unless there's something crazy i'm missing currently (like another player) but i don't think so!

Also i love how you are placing me in your townbloc exactly alongside my 3 highest scumreads, while also pushing my two strongest townreads as scum in {Chemist, Amrun}.

You must really believe i am terribly bad at being town to advocate sparing me in your current interpretation of the gamestate. Unless you are trying to pocket me today, douse the fires under Hectic's ass and get a spare on him whereas i get nked very shortly. How far am i from the truth right now?

This is the second time i've been reading people pushing me as an equal or even superior townread to Hectic, yet the only spare vote on me is actually Chemist. I do not care about being spared - again, that's not the point - the point is that this progression makes no sense at all.

[Farkran]

TLDR Hectic/Chara look aligned, hectics reasons for tr Chara apply equally well to replica and are thus maybe faked, and I’m pretty sure there was a third reason, but I don’t remember what it is.

Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given scum has even more reason not to delay their own spare.

For the record both town and scum have reasons to delay their own spare, especially D1.

Town could want to continue influencing the thread or they could think the spare route is likely to be infiltrated by mafia.

Scum, OTOH, need to continue looking town after being spared unless we literally spare both of them.

Fark, do you agree that this is/was your opinion? Has it changed? Why?

Yes, it is my opinion, stronger than ever. There's no reason people are townreading Hectic OR Chara this hard as to promote a spare on them. The only thing that possibly changed is that now Chara is no longer the only possible slot aligned to scum!Hectic and i can't make any sense out of that.

Can anyone tell me why town!Hectic would delay his spare wagon, when he was also voting himself at the time? Seriously. Why.

[Farkran]

pedit: that's also a TLDR. Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given

scum has even more reason

not

to delay their own spare.

WHY?

FN wasn't outed yet, it would have been optimal play for a spare-based strategy to have the FN use his powers over night and spare him today, in exchange for a 1/8 chance he would have been killed n1. Town!Hectic had all the reasons in the world to end the day quickly, whereas scum!Hectic got to be widely townread and is STILL widely townread - there was no reason to think that would change and scum!Hectic has no fear of being NKed either.

[Farkran]

i can also see chemist town tone early.

but chemist tone after i went on my long hiatus isn't so great and his progression from the "pine is just LHF and scum is pushing him" stage to his current reads are also not great.

Ok, can you produce a detailed scumcase of Chemist? Because so far i've only read about Chemist defending the lurkers - which i also found scummy at the time, but that points to a {Chemist, Pine=Psyche} solve.

Now Chemist is sparing me. Set aside that i know that i am town, you also have a very strong townread of me right now, so where's the scum intent from Chemist in sparing me in this gamestate? Who's Chemist partner? Amrun? She's as far as she can possibly get from being spared, what's the reason for Chemist to promote a Farkran spare in this situation?

[Farkran]

HURT: popsofyourface

HEAL: hectic

Ok.

Why? Serious question. Why do you now townread hectic based on a poorly assembled meta case of his first game on site and a 40p multiball theme?

Why do you townread Nacho enough to sheep him while doing a complete 180° of your previous read?

[Farkran]

I'm glad to see you flip your read on Chemist but feel like you might have taken it too far the other way, I think metaing him of all people should actually be really useful.

I think defending the lurkers+once when he asked a "Is that why you...?" question over a more open-ended one were the only things of his that have made me frown. Thinking about it, I could see him trying to pocket Farkran by only tackling his half of our exchange late in Day 1 but that's really tenuous and goes against my single strongest read atm.

Can you elaborate on this post?

I will not go over again our last exchange because it would be pointless right now, but please stop saying that math and personality are two separate things. If you have a strong competitive ego, you don't go for a 7% higher EV pacifist route over gaining progressively increasing information. At the time i thought it was scummy, but that's really just wrong. It does fit you a little better though, after i noticed that your talk is mostly about about government conspiracy and war analogies, but please. Don't do that.

Just elaborate the quoted post, i'd like to hear about your strongest read and your read of chemist specifically.

[Nachomamma8]

Farkran - you seem to be viewing my Hectic read through the lens of "would this read be good if someone had it on me?" when in actuality the reason I am emphasizing Hectic's meta is twofold - one, he doesn't have a lot of experience playing scum, and two, he's extraordinarily uncomfortable when playing scum, which is the important piece. You don't get over being scared when you post as scum in a couple of months.

Second thing that I'll address right this second is I take exception with your assertion that wrong = bad. I was wrong yesterday; doesn't mean that I was bad. The only bad thing about your play right now is that you're reading with the intent to respond instead of actually listening to what people are posting; if you go all Rambo with your reads they're gonna suck more often and not simply because the game is too hard to be soloed.

[Amrun]

This is the correct level of paranoia to have around me. Or anyone, really, unless you have such strong meta experience with a player that you can bypass standard ways of hunting. There are people with near unlimited scumranges. Townreading said people under certain circumstances is ok, but those reads should never be 100% strength level in one sense or the other. I think this also applies to Hectic, or Bingle for that matter. Or Amrun herself.

like call me a skeptic but don't you think it's a little unreasonable that Fark says that Hectic has a near unlimited scumrange when he's played two games as scum and neither of those games were particularly impressive? when both games he played as scum featured a flat tone and a lack of his glowing and engaged personality?

This post seems incongruous followed by a town case on Farkran. I don’t get it.

[Amrun]

although I still do not think that sparing is anything other than terrible for D1 and really dislike that his last meaningful activity was pushing that especially when he earlier called it out as suboptimal

that's just how the game turned out for me.
if i had a scumread that didn't suck i would have pursued it, but i didn't. instead i had a townread that i felt really good about. so i pushed the townread. i don't understand why that was a sticking point for anyone.

I wish to reiterate a random thought that i had mentioned earlier but i didn't gave it enough importance.

Why was sherlock killed over hectic, if hectic is THAT widely townread? Note that i didn't start pushing Hectic before night 1. I was mostly pushing Chara, Replica, and to some extent Psyche. Sherlock was widely townread too, but i think there is another significant difference: sherlock was really strong against spares - he only changed his mind when he noticed conftown!suji - whereas Hectic immediately entered d2 with a 4-spared route advertisement.

If Sherlock had been left alive I would have been pushing to spare him today. It’s not really comparable IMO.

And as for your earlier question, yes I do independently townlean Psyche, as stated previously (though my read has been evolving a lot so I understand).

[Amrun]

pedit: that's also a TLDR. Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given

scum has even more reason

not

to delay their own spare.

WHY?

FN wasn't outed yet, it would have been optimal play for a spare-based strategy to have the FN use his powers over night and spare him today, in exchange for a 1/8 chance he would have been killed n1. Town!Hectic had all the reasons in the world to end the day quickly, whereas scum!Hectic got to be widely townread and is STILL widely townread - there was no reason to think that would change and scum!Hectic has no fear of being NKed either.

I don’t think most scum assume the tides of being widely town read will continue tbh. I think that’s a faulty premise.

[Amrun]

I don’t know what to think about nacho.

I think his treatment of the Farkran slot is off, as previously noted.

I don’t really hate his chemist read, though I’m not convinced. It’s better than the other scum cases I’ve read today at least.

I like that he came back in producing content. That is excellent.

Nacho, can we compromise on Bingle? What do you think?

[Chemist1422]

HURT: Pine

Pine might be someone i'd wrestle with as well, i don't know if there is much difference between them besides Asriel being the one to have ignored me a few times now. i know he's busy with his chores, but really.

Thinking Nacho. He posted but didn't respond to my posts.

Otherwise Pine or Asriel.

Sparing Hectic probably works because if he's scum then we kinda deserve the loss

@Nacho
These were all on the two pages before I made my Pine read

Out of these three I find Alim's vote to be the worst, especially considering their ISO of Pine was "this slot has done nothing and hasn't gotten pushed"

[Chemist1422]

i do wonder about his list of reads, because from calling Replica "disingenous" (with negative connotations?) i didn't expect a strong townread.

i thought that replica's portrayal of your posting was a bit slimy and overly critical in that he seemed to be fitting a square peg into a round hole. i don't think that's necessarily a scum trait; again, don't think that scum replaces in and starts pushing a you+me team unless they feel they have a case that can get them some support or clout and the push as a whole didn't read that way.

where do you see scum, Chemist?

not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there

so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji

will probably work through this soon

when you say cop-out push, do you mean you think scum are pushing it, or just LHF?

Just LHF but I do think scum are probably pushing it if I’m right

this is a weird position to push when there was exactly 0 people voting for pine at that point in time.
what did pine do that read town to you? why is it scummy to think that someone who has done absolutely nothing has a chance of being scum?

Okay the first line isn't even true, Hectic was voting Pine

And it isn't, but it's scummy to push them as a D1 lynch when the game doesn't even benefit lynching D1 that strongly, if at all

[Chemist1422]

currently at the point where the scumteam is exactly {Chemist, Amrun} and now that the rest of my reread will either be finding ammo for those two reads or finding places to make snarky comments while waiting for something else to jump out at me, but.......

I don't see where the read on me came from other than you not liking me defending the Pine/Asriel slots

And even if that's your issue, you still aren't putting me in a team with them

[Chemist1422]

Ah alright

Hectic, I initially townread you because I liked your progression into solving.

fun fact - this isn't actually true.
chemist started reading Hectic as town roundabouts #24, at a time when Hectic hadn't done anything resembling solving.

that was explicitly me getting pocketed by him gimmick posting

[Chemist1422]

My Nacho read is based on one central thing: I think they are having trouble making genuine reads. I don't like them repeatedly going "I disagree with this but Chemist is still town", it feels like them trying to justify a TMI townread, I don't like the abundance of mechanics talk, and I don't like their scum pool being mostly lurkers then them proceeding to lurk.

i disagreed with your townreads but thought you were town anyways.
you disagree with farkran's scumreads but think he's town anyways.

man that's crazy how life works right???

Difference is that I actually gave reasoning on my Farkran townread and engaged with him, neither of which you did with me

the mechanics talk attack is bullllllcrap. mechanics talk has been rampant throughout the game and a big proponent of it has been your second strongest townread Farkran. what makes mine scummy and his OK?

He was actually solving alongside it

You weren't

i don't understand why me having lurkers in my leftover pool is scummy or why my lurking after that point was scummy?

c o n t r a d i c t i o n

i don't think that this case is a case being presented by someone who is actually trying to figure out my alignment (or anyone else's, for that matter). i think that chemist needs to die by a shiny holy fire.

uwu

[Farkran]

Farkran - you seem to be viewing my Hectic read through the lens of "would this read be good if someone had it on me?" when in actuality the reason I am emphasizing Hectic's meta is twofold - one, he doesn't have a lot of experience playing scum, and two, he's extraordinarily uncomfortable when playing scum, which is the important piece. You don't get over being scared when you post as scum in a couple of months.

Second thing that I'll address right this second is I take exception with your assertion that wrong = bad. I was wrong yesterday; doesn't mean that I was bad. The only bad thing about your play right now is that you're reading with the intent to respond instead of actually listening to what people are posting; if you go all Rambo with your reads they're gonna suck more often and not simply because the game is too hard to be soloed.

I do not really agree with this post. It's not just about me, it's about the differences that everyone is bound to have between his very first game and any other game after having played a couple; and the difference between a 40p multiball theme vs a townhunt-based mini theme. Sure, the inexperience and uncomfortableness in playing scum can be taken into account, but the point is that i don't see anything that Hectic has done in this game that could be described as excellent townplay. I think your premise to create a strong townread of Hectic is wrong, regardless of whether Hectic is scum in the first place or if you are his scumpartner or not.

This leaves me with doubt as to where to look for scum right now. My first reaction as posts that comes off as "wrong" to me is aggressiveness, you know - the prideful sentiment that goes "i am perfect and everyone else is stupid!" - but after mulling over it for a while i find myself asking if i could be correct over almost literally all other players in this game or if i'm just being dumb. I don't see any reason to rule out the possibility of scum!Hectic being partnered with any one of his pushers, i.e. mainly Chara and Nacho. That would explain pretty much everything in this gamestate, so... i don't think i am being dumb, this time.

Every other solve presented so far does not convince me, really. I tried re-evaluating every theory that has been pushed so far and there are only a few that make sense to me. Let's make a recap:

1) Scum!Chemist = i literally cannot see a reason for him to push me as a spare unless we are exactly the scum team, which is an immediate no to me.
2) Scum!Replica = this might be subordinated to scum!Chara, pushing for a town!Hectic spare but hoping that today will not be resolved in a spare. Would explain what's going on, but they aren't even trying to push for a mislynch, and i no longer scumread Replica.
3) Scum!Amrun = Maybe-ish. Pushing for a town!Bingle mislynch would fit the scum agenda, but i have trouble finding a partner for her that she wouldn't be able to spare if following a spare-based strategy. The people who are currently farthest from being spared are exactly Amrun, Chemist and Bingle... which conflict with everything i have been saying so far. Otherwise she could just push to spare her partner and it wouldn't even be a hard feat to achieve.
4) Scum!Bingle = Maybe. I can see scum!Almidia coming back only to spare Suji, and scum!Bingle voting for a mislynch on town!Hectic. I have more of a hard time seeing scum!Bingle turning his read upside down and sparing town!Hectic, though. And i didn't scumread Almidia in the first place.
5) Scum!Psyche = one of the few solves that would make sense, given that he only has consensus reads at this point and is refusing to put his weight on any of them except for scum!Amrun. Whom i townread.

The remaining people are Hectic, Chara and Nacho.

If anyone can provide a solid explanation as to how is it possible that those three have such nonsensical interactions, and at the same time how both the wagon against me and the wagon sparing Hectic were exactly full town, i'm all ears. Really the only team that makes sense if we assume that sentence as true is Chemist/Amrun, since Amrun was the only slot present on Asriel wagon but not on Hectic spare wagon, but it's... like, way less plausible than almost literally anything else. Why would we pursue that solve as our main before getting a flip on Hectic?

[Farkran]

pedit: that's also a TLDR. Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given

scum has even more reason

not

to delay their own spare.

WHY?

FN wasn't outed yet, it would have been optimal play for a spare-based strategy to have the FN use his powers over night and spare him today, in exchange for a 1/8 chance he would have been killed n1. Town!Hectic had all the reasons in the world to end the day quickly, whereas scum!Hectic got to be widely townread and is STILL widely townread - there was no reason to think that would change and scum!Hectic has no fear of being NKed either.

I don’t think most scum assume the tides of being widely town read will continue tbh. I think that’s a faulty premise.

Can you explain why? There are no PRs and no flips that could change that, no night kills that could make him afraid to die before achieving the spare. Can you tell me how the general consensus on Hectic would change over night, if i didn't start pushing him? I mean... even now that i

AM

pushing him, he's the longest wagon in the town.

[Farkran]

Like, @Amrun, in a common mafia game i would agree with you. But in this specific setup, i really... don't. I don't think it's a coincidence that Hectic entered d2 by promoting a 4-spared route.

[Farkran]

currently at the point where the scumteam is exactly {Chemist, Amrun} and now that the rest of my reread will either be finding ammo for those two reads or finding places to make snarky comments while waiting for something else to jump out at me, but.......

I don't see where the read on me came from other than you not liking me defending the Pine/Asriel slots

And even if that's your issue, you still aren't putting me in a team with them

This. Big time, this.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum!Chemist = i literally cannot see a reason for him to push me as a spare unless we are exactly the scum team, which is an immediate no to me.

I don't understand this at all. Scum doesn't push for a town spare because...?

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Pine

Pine might be someone i'd wrestle with as well, i don't know if there is much difference between them besides Asriel being the one to have ignored me a few times now. i know he's busy with his chores, but really.

Thinking Nacho. He posted but didn't respond to my posts.

Otherwise Pine or Asriel.

Sparing Hectic probably works because if he's scum then we kinda deserve the loss

@Nacho
These were all on the two pages before I made my Pine read

Out of these three I find Alim's vote to be the worst, especially considering their ISO of Pine was "this slot has done nothing and hasn't gotten pushed"

I don't understand

[Nachomamma8]

...don't understand why you townread both Asriel and Pine yesterday, or, more importantly, why you thought it was scummy for people to say that they weren't townreading people who did nothing which is something you still haven't addressed. I think that you dropped the "people are just pushing an easy lynch on Pine" bit before it made sense for town to do so - your top townread Hectic was the only people who voted them + a couple others said they didn't think he was town. They weren't pushing him, they just said that they didn't think he was town. Why was that an unreasonable position to take?

[Nachomamma8]

currently at the point where the scumteam is exactly {Chemist, Amrun} and now that the rest of my reread will either be finding ammo for those two reads or finding places to make snarky comments while waiting for something else to jump out at me, but.......

I don't see where the read on me came from other than you not liking me defending the Pine/Asriel slots

And even if that's your issue, you still aren't putting me in a team with them

Why would I? I don't believe you were defending a partner. I think you were defending LHF in order to throw shade on the townies who fell for it.

[Nachomamma8]

Comparing Alimdia's posting here to a recently completed scumgame makes me feel better about the slot, too. There's a lot of throwing out loose speculation and accusations with a lot less emphasis on Alimdia not understanding points or trying to get to the bottom of them.

Posts like Alim's #129, #202, and #211 show a lot more genuine confusion and interest in understanding someone's thinking imo.

This is a stretch. While I agree there was more of an effort here to understand what was going on, I don't think the difference is at all outside the realm of Alimida simply playing better.