[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[davesaz]

TSE, how many players in that game? Is that meant to be a bunch of options that are chosen from randomly?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

TSE, how many players in that game? Is that meant to be a bunch of options that are chosen from randomly?

9 Players like Newbie.

[popsofctown]

I'm not very interested in a 9p where the evil faction doesn't know their partners but maybe some other players are.

[DrDolittle]

Donnie Brasco

3 Mafia Goons

1 Town-Aligned Donnie Brasco

8 Informed Vanilla Townies

• Mafia Goons
  and
  Donnie Brasco
  share the scum private topic and vote for NK via plurality.
  
• Each
  Vanilla Townie
  is informed of the identity of
  Donnie Brasco
  .
  
• Each
  Mafia Goon
  has access to
  Day Kill
  that only works on
  Mafia Goons
  and
  Donnie Brasco
  . The
  Day Kill
  command is privately messaged to the mod during day time.
  
• Donnie Brasco
  maintains a
  Prevent
  command on a Mafia Player that is privately messaged to the mod and can be updated each night.
  
• Mafia
  win when they equal or outnumber the
  Town
  , or if the
  Day Kill
  hits
  Donnie Brasco
  , and
  Donnie Brasco
  did not
  Prevent
  the killing player.
  Town
  wins if all
  Mafia
  are dead.

[davesaz]

On top of pops' comment, TSE's setup looks solvable with a massclaim. I think the SK/Guardian Angel/Witch trio would have a better chance of being viable in a larger game alongside more VTs and a regular mafia team.

[popsofctown]

On top of pops' comment, TSE's setup looks solvable with a massclaim. I think the SK/Guardian Angel/Witch trio would have a better chance of being viable in a larger game alongside more VTs and a regular mafia team.

Nah I don't think it has a massclaim issue once you read the weird way it was formatted. The third time I read it I figured out what the setups are supposed to be.
As an example one setup is 1 SK, 1 Witch, 2 Masons, 5 VT. Another one is 2 Serial Killer, 1 Botanist, 1 Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla townies.

SK + Guardian Angel does look cool to slip into a large theme, yeah.

[popsofctown]

Donnie Brasco

3 Mafia Goons

1 Town-Aligned Donnie Brasco

8 Informed Vanilla Townies

• Mafia Goons
  and
  Donnie Brasco
  share the scum private topic and vote for NK via plurality.
  
• Each
  Vanilla Townie
  is informed of the identity of
  Donnie Brasco
  .
  
• Each
  Mafia Goon
  has access to
  Day Kill
  that only works on
  Mafia Goons
  and
  Donnie Brasco
  . The
  Day Kill
  command is privately messaged to the mod during day time.
  
• Donnie Brasco
  maintains a
  Prevent
  command on a Mafia Player that is privately messaged to the mod and can be updated each night.
  
• Mafia
  win when they equal or outnumber the
  Town
  , or if the
  Day Kill
  hits
  Donnie Brasco
  , and
  Donnie Brasco
  did not
  Prevent
  the killing player.
  Town
  wins if all
  Mafia
  are dead.

Innovative. Lots of activity shenanigans here as written, once one goon is down, if one goon is verifiably afk for the day, Donnie Brasco can name the scumteam and prevent the scum player who is active, then start the following day with a prevent on the remaining solo scum.

It's implied but not stated in the setup that the prevent command will stop the daykill from happening (a reasonable interpretation is that Brasco will die anyway, but the win condition will be prevented.)

I don't exactly understand the design goal, there doesn't seem to be a social-deduction way to determine which goon is likely to submit the daykill, so it seems similar to "roll a d3 as a saving throw against the instant win".

[davesaz]

For the Donnie Brasco setup, day kill ends the day right? Daytalk, or no?
Can mafia break it by figuring out which of those 4 the town are unwilling to lynch? Does town have to lynch Donnie to prevent mafia from winning via lucky shot?
Does Donnie get to make a N0 prevent? If not, scum have a chance to win with 1st post, if they yolo daykill. Of course choosing poorly messes up their chances pretty badly.
Questions aside I'm intrigued by the idea. It would take more than a few minutes of thought to come up with the optimum way to play each role and that's a good sign.

Pedit: agree that predicting the daykill submitter seems hard, which means it's really swingy.

[popsofctown]

Can mafia break it by figuring out which of those 4 the town are unwilling to lynch?

You can "break" 9p mountainous by figuring out which two players are unwilling to lynch eachother, because they are mafia . "Break" isn't the right word here. It is clearly intended that this Assassins in the Palace dynamic is going to overwrite some of traditional mafia and if you don't want that dynamic you wouldn't /in, but "break" isn't the right word.
Mafia can't perform the daykill in their first post. Donnie Brasco is in the scum PT, he knows who all the mafia are (presumably he is in the scum PT on a secret alt because otherwise the setup makes no sense and is absurd, scum read the PT access list and submit a daykill and win). I guess it's possible the intention is that all the mafia are also on secret alts but that seems like a much more scumsided setup. But assuming the mafia aren't on secret alts, if the yolo daykill is a miss, the daykill is expended and Donnie Brasco just names the scumteam in the game thread and the game is over.

Lynching Donnie Brasco to reduce the risk of losing by daykill is a play with value. In theory, though, the mafia can detect that is what's happening and submit a daykill on Donnie Brasco before he is fully lynched.
In the event they don't do that, in the mafia-aren't-on-secret-alts version, it's an instant town win: Donnie Brasco selfhammers and names the scumteam in the same post.

[Blatant Scum]

D1 put people randomly on L-1.
Donnie Brasco selfhammers and says who is scum.
The game turns into mafia random vigshooting each other.

[Blatant Scum]

I think that every mafia doesn't know who is mafia? Just knows that persons a, b, c are mafia/DB.

[popsofctown]

D1 put people randomly on L-1.
Donnie Brasco selfhammers and says who is scum.
The game turns into mafia random vigshooting each other.

Each time a player is put to L-1 randomly and does not selfhammer and say who the scum is, it becomes confirmed that they are not Donnie Brasco. So the theoretical EV should be close to even I think, scum have some sort of strategy where they take a lolshot after N players have been confirmed not-Donnie in this way.

[Datisi]

Aren't all Vanilla Townies informed of who Donnie is? Theoretically the game turns into "can the Town pile on enough votes for Donnie to self-hammer before the Mafia vigshoots him".

[Jingle]

Alright.

Lone wolf is probably broken by repeated no lynching until puppet masters vig wolves.
Strings is roughly 2 goons v 2 mason doctors + 5vt which is still mafia but is townsided af. (The extra information mafia has over the masons is who is against them.)
SKD3 guardian angel doesn’t work as advertised and all of the setups seem scumsided at a glance. G angel just means LYLO is earlier because lynching the SK while purged outside of lylo is a guilty result.
DB is necessarily white flag, and there probably needs to be some kind of mechanic to prevent DB from switching prevents often or activity becomes AI. I’d suggest running it as a marathon, it seems fascinating that way. There’s also interesting wagonomics to be done with rvs, considering mafia bussing runs the risk of getting them day vigged. Prevented day kills and whether the maf pt has an access list do need to be clarified. If DB has access but isn’t mod announced they could just choose to be silent and force the mafia to hunt them in all of the players.

[popsofctown]

Aren't all Vanilla Townies informed of who Donnie is? Theoretically the game turns into "can the Town pile on enough votes for Donnie to self-hammer before the Mafia vigshoots him".

That's definitely one of the activity issues I alluded to yes

[popsofctown]

omg Jingle's location changed

Compulsive lynch is probably o.k. for Lone Wolf.

[Jingle]

Ironically my location changed just in time for me to be back in Spokane for several weeks. Hopefully I get to leave again in the next two days though.

[popsofctown]

It's easier to leave the state when you don't have any warrants, isn't it? Hope your attorney is working hard for you.

[Jingle]

Nah, squatting in a house with limited utilities while setting it up to go on the market. Close though

[DrDolittle]

thanks for the valuable feedback. im thinking about a revision where donnie never finds it optimal reveal in thread - because that's where the difficulty comes from.
My intention for prevention is actually pops' second option, that "a reasonable interpretation is that Brasco will die anyway, but the win condition will be prevented".

I don't understand the following "Donnie Brasco is in the scum PT, he knows who all the mafia are (presumably he is in the scum PT on a secret alt because otherwise the setup makes no sense and is absurd, scum read the PT access list and submit a daykill and win)". I was thinking that in the roll PM, it would just say "you and scum2 and scum3 and scum4 are in a chat together, but you know one of them is Donnie", which should functionally be the same as a secret alt?

I wanted the prevent mechanic such that on 2 scum 1 DB, scum's win rate is not 50 percent, but pops is right - the design concept is awful - that it is just roll a D3 or flip a coin. This mechanism is taken inspiration from the accusation/bribe in zor's fortnight games, but I guess it's not too popular.

design goal is to do AITP, but like not random lynching as the optimal strategy

[DrDolittle]

Donnie Brasco - v2

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town-Aligned Donnie Brasco

X Informed Townies

8-X Vanilla Townies

• Mafia Goons
  and
  Donnie Brasco
  share
  Mafia PT Access
  and vote for NK via plurality.
  Mafia Goons
  only know the identity of players with
  Mafia PT Access
  .
  
• Each
  Informed Townie
  know the identity of
  Donnie Brasco
  .
  
• Both
  Donnie Brasco
  and
  Mafia Goons
  flip with the identity of having
  Mafia PT Access
  .
  
• Upon lynch,
  Mafia PT Access
  players have access to the
  Accuse
  action in the Dead PT can target any other player.
  
• The game ends either when
  Mafia
  equal or outnumber the
  Town
  , or 48 hours after all players with
  Mafia PT Access
  has died. All threads are open at all times before game ends.
  
• Mafia
  win when they equal or outnumber the
  Town
  , OR if both
  Mafia Goons
  successfully
  Accuse
  Donnie Brasco
  .
  Town
  wins if all
  Mafia
  are dead, AND if
  Donnie Brasco
  is
  Accused
  by one or less
  Mafia Goon
  .

Theme: Donnie Brasco has infiltrated the mob! Who has infiltrated the police force. Can our hero stop them before the mob destroys the police from the inside? Lynches are arrests, and if both mafia accuses Donnie rather than each other, then the court cannot convict and send the bad guys since it's a he say she say situation.

[popsofctown]

Oooooooh it's so spicy

[DrDolittle]

Donnie Brasco - v2

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town-Aligned Donnie Brasco

X Informed Townies

8-X Vanilla Townies

• Mafia Goons
  and
  Donnie Brasco
  share
  Mafia PT Access
  and vote for NK via plurality.
  Mafia Goons
  only know the identity of players with
  Mafia PT Access
  .
  
• Each
  Informed Townie
  know the identity of
  Donnie Brasco
  .
  
• Both
  Donnie Brasco
  and
  Mafia Goons
  flip with the identity of having
  Mafia PT Access
  .
  
• Upon lynch,
  Mafia PT Access
  players have access to the
  Accuse
  action in the Dead PT can target any other player.
  
• The game ends either when
  Mafia
  equal or outnumber the
  Town
  , or 48 hours after all players with
  Mafia PT Access
  has died. All threads are open at all times before game ends.
  
• Mafia
  win when they equal or outnumber the
  Town
  , OR if both
  Mafia Goons
  successfully
  Accuse
  Donnie Brasco
  .
  Town
  wins if all
  Mafia
  are dead, AND if
  Donnie Brasco
  is
  Accused
  by one or less
  Mafia Goon
  .

Theme: Donnie Brasco has infiltrated the mob! Who has infiltrated the police force. Can our hero stop them before the mob destroys the police from the inside? Lynches are arrests, and if both mafia accuses Donnie rather than each other, then the court cannot convict and send the bad guys since it's a he say she say situation.

Any more comments? I want to run this - ideally under micros so I'll throw in a pair of masons for balance.

[Kerset]

I think that mafia should bus each other. Informed townie is very unlikely to vote Donnie, so the easiest way is to check which PT Access member receives reluctance. If town rolles 7~8 informed roles then they have really low chance to win.

[popsofctown]

The informed townies can feign interest in a Donnie Brasco lynch to counteract that. If not very many townies are informed, it becomes hard to keep the uninformed townies from hammering.