Team Mafia 2020: Normal Game (Endgame)

[teacher]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

[MathBlade]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

If you believe that theory then you have to believe scum attempted to kill me.

They wouldn’t attempt to hood AND kill RCE so then they would have to have shot me in that world.

[MathBlade]

Don't think anyone actually said why they think it is a bad idea, everyone just say no we're not doing that without remotely explaining.

The only bad thing about this plan is "we lose icos voice for a day" and this is solvable by my method of deciding tomorrow's lynch.

OK, try it another way. What's the benefit (leaving town!Ico)? B/c theres no world where I consider Ico scum, and Ill suck ass if thats wrong.

1. Easier to get a scum Lynch (less towniest needed)
2. 'proof' of ico, good for sanity, or much better info with anyone else dead
3. Forcing scum to make one of their kills in a less-informed state

This is also kinda the stuff I mentioned. I don't agree with most of this, but I don't scumread shos for it either?

1)Easier to get a scum lynch isn't true, because while needing 1 less vote you also HAVE 1 less town vote to work with. But that's from my perspective.
2)I suppose due dilligence from town allows this?
3)Eh. I think town always needs to maintain initiative, and the best way to do that is thru lynching. It's strategy vs odds I guess.

1. Yup, less townies to convince to vote there.
3. You are in even numbers. Eventually you WILL nolynch. Question is not if, it is when.

We could just you know win by lynching scum every day. Why are you so insistent we will get this wrong?

You’re campaigning for a no lynch here is crap.

We really really should lynch shos.

[MathBlade]

From what I read by now my gut tells me that Math is scum.

you were literally townreading math a couple hours ago
math hasnt really changed his tone or angle on you so???

Math has made two (!) Attempts to call my posts scumslips. On one hand, bias etc. On another hand, math has played with me a lot and knows that as scum I am computed as FUCK. See for example the recent cult loss I linked to (just my latest game) - read the cult PT. When I am scum, I am just about as careful and calculated as one can be, to the point where I consider the timestamps on my posts to make it look like I'm surprised etc if needed (see: my CC to poyzin). Scumslips? Lol. He is reaaaaaally pushing it and grasping at straws. That's why gut.

@Math, can confirm?

First off when I first theorized that was a slip RC was an unknown. I quoted that so people would look back for context to see if it is now indeed a slip since RC is a JOAT. So not multiple scumslips. I was hoping to get people to review that. So no, 1 scumslip just emphasized.

Secondly wet noodling (what you were doing before I called you out on it) IS a valid strategy and careful and calculated to avoid giving reads.

Thirdly I don’t remember too much about meta I am trying to remember which way my head should be. I don’t know this cult game at all. This game currently you’ve been stingy with reads something I don’t feel town!you is. And yes it’s a feeling not off memory or anything like that.

[shos]

To anyone scumreading Ari:

how do you feel about his relation to the saud lynch?

@shos in particular, you think Ari is scum. Like, your only main scumread right now?
He was focused on lynching scum, and he kept calling you out for going against what is now certain a scum wagon. Yet you scumread him because PoE?

Well, I wouldn't say he is my main scumread, but he is definitely the slot I think is best to lynch right now. I do have to look into saudade interactions, when I get the time to dig in. Hopefully on Thursday; I hoped today but gf troubles lol.
The fact he was against saudade doesn't give him too much towncred (unless he lead that lynch and/or initiated it?) because I don't really think there was any counterwagon viable against it. I was against that lynch and if memory serves right only the policy lynch of xtomx was an actual option.

[shos]

Math hasn't made a lot of sense during the game, but I liked how he reacted to my protection of him? I think I townread his reaction to Bella's claim and I strongly feel scum don't go bananas like that in the main thread over it. Scum would have a lot more calculated response to that.

Please enlighten me. If my memory serves right, and correct me if I'm wrong because indeed my memory of that part of the game is blurry - Math jumped the opportunity to make himself appear conftown, and still pushed the angle of him-conf-town even despite the jailkeeper claim. Don't you think this is EXACTLY what scum would do when given the opportunity? Town can never ever find out how the kill failed if there was one at all, and if this bases him as conftown it's good to coast to endgame. Definitely worth the attempt.

And then you ask yourself, what would TOWN do in that case? How self-centered would you be as town, even if you *were* sure that what happened should make you conftown from other POVs?

I think Ari is a good lynch, but I can definitely live with a Math flip too.

[shos]

I was never town there, lol, I started the game as cult. Perhaps fooled people that I got culted so good that after endgame? XD

He said he was talking about this game. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81377

I was a cultist there too.. perhaps there's a misunderstanding?

Did you like forget to read the literal next post or sth. It might even be helpful to read the one straight after that too and give your thoughts if you have any.

I read things from the beginning, sadly, I cannot forget the future.

[shos]

I was never town there, lol, I started the game as cult. Perhaps fooled people that I got culted so good that after endgame? XD

He said he was talking about this game. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81377

I was a cultist there too.. perhaps there's a misunderstanding?

Did you like forget to read the literal next post or sth. It might even be helpful to read the one straight after that too and give your thoughts if you have any.

I read things from the beginning, sadly, I cannot forget the future.

For the record, though, it is worth mentioning that in the cult game with Hectic I made a psych gambit and read the entire thread and then re-read-and-commented-one-by-one so that my counterclaim to poyzin appears legit. This isn't quite the case here tho

[shos]

When did xtomx claim hooded relative to Bella’s claim. Iirc, it was before the jk. I can’t check while at school, but that’s one of my main reasons to tr him, along with a completely believable portrayal of the hood thread and picking up details today.

On Ari, I don’t recall him pushing saud hard, but he’s my goal for a reread tonight.

Not sure about the timing (can you check?) but 'believable portrayal of the hood thread'? I don't recall ever reading anything about this?

[shos]

a word of advice, ico
you're extremely difficult to work with
a large part of this game is securing mutual townreads and working with them to solve the game
everyone townreads you. you have free pick. but you cant sustain a tr anywhere
anytime you tr someone theyre back in your poe soon enough
we cant work well with someone whos constantly coming back to suspicion on us, or at least i cant

look at the last 3 posts of bellas iso - attempting to work with teacher
this is why i believe she was killed over you, despite your high thread presence, and is the single strongest reason to tr teacher
your reads change like the wind and you're hard to follow, which is a lot less scary to scum than town who tr each other

This is the second or third time you mention that you really care about what people think about YOU. why is that, mr townie? why can't work with someone who scumreads you on other scums?

[shos]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

Also possible: scum hood scum so that come D3 there's a hood with 2 scums and 1 town, much bigger sway to pocket him.
It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

If you believe that theory then you have to believe scum attempted to kill me.

They wouldn’t attempt to hood AND kill RCE so then they would have to have shot me in that world.

...we lynched RCE, he wasn't killed. Ico's protection makes that possible.

[shos]

Don't think anyone actually said why they think it is a bad idea, everyone just say no we're not doing that without remotely explaining.

The only bad thing about this plan is "we lose icos voice for a day" and this is solvable by my method of deciding tomorrow's lynch.

OK, try it another way. What's the benefit (leaving town!Ico)? B/c theres no world where I consider Ico scum, and Ill suck ass if thats wrong.

1. Easier to get a scum Lynch (less towniest needed)
2. 'proof' of ico, good for sanity, or much better info with anyone else dead
3. Forcing scum to make one of their kills in a less-informed state

This is also kinda the stuff I mentioned. I don't agree with most of this, but I don't scumread shos for it either?

1)Easier to get a scum lynch isn't true, because while needing 1 less vote you also HAVE 1 less town vote to work with. But that's from my perspective.
2)I suppose due dilligence from town allows this?
3)Eh. I think town always needs to maintain initiative, and the best way to do that is thru lynching. It's strategy vs odds I guess.

1. Yup, less townies to convince to vote there.
3. You are in even numbers. Eventually you WILL nolynch. Question is not if, it is when.

We could just you know win by lynching scum every day. Why are you so insistent we will get this wrong?

You’re campaigning for a no lynch here is crap.

We really really should lynch shos.

LOL
I'm not gonna respect this with a response

[MathBlade]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

Also possible: scum hood scum so that come D3 there's a hood with 2 scums and 1 town, much bigger sway to pocket him.
It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

If you believe that theory then you have to believe scum attempted to kill me.

They wouldn’t attempt to hood AND kill RCE so then they would have to have shot me in that world.

...we lynched RCE, he wasn't killed. Ico's protection makes that possible.

That was in reference to N1

If your theory is Xtom is lying then scum and scum attempted to neighborize RCE
Then they don’t kill him as well.

What we did on D3 irrelevant to N1 unless scum are psychic

[MathBlade]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

Also possible: scum hood scum so that come D3 there's a hood with 2 scums and 1 town, much bigger sway to pocket him.
It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

If you believe that theory then you have to believe scum attempted to kill me.

They wouldn’t attempt to hood AND kill RCE so then they would have to have shot me in that world.

...we lynched RCE, he wasn't killed. Ico's protection makes that possible.

That was in reference to N1

If your theory is Xtom is lying then scum and scum attempted to neighborize RCE
Then they don’t kill him as well.

What we did on D3 irrelevant to N1 unless scum are psychic

[MathBlade]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

This would indicate a traitor though if you keep this theory.

Why would scum neighborize a lurker?

Unless it’s to mislynch RC I don’t see it unless traitor hunting.

[MathBlade]

It’s not like they can even pretend a different action later. Neighbors if Saudade lasted until d3 would be proven. So then any neighborize action would need an explanation.

[MathBlade]

I feel like people are trying to have their cake and eat it too

If you think Xtom was neighborized (as I do) you need to ask what scum motivation there is to do that:
I can only come up with traitor hunting or mislynch RC. The latter of which makes me the more likely kill.

If you think Xtom is lying then scum would have attempted to neighborize RCE and have failed. There was no tracker claim d1 and therefore no reason to hold back a neighborize. This conclusion necessitates that I am town as no death happened.

The only way you can conclude I am scum is that Xtom is town and scum shot RCE.
The reason I am specifically doing this is because then you have to confront all the evidence that is present here so far.

A lot of people I feel are going “my feels!” and aren’t looking at mechanical evidence here.

[MathBlade]

Xtom is town or traitor* mainly I don’t see a world in which Xtom is group scum here.

Same with Ico I don’t see that either. 2 players out of 8 not group scum.

Let’s look at Saudade wagons on d1 and D2 since again start from place of knowledge

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: superfluous and not yet of the sediment

Vote Count 2.16 (FINAL)

Saudade

(7): skitter30, Aristophanes, Flopz, Iconeum, teacher, RadiantCowbells, Saudade

shos

(1): MathBlade

RadiantCowbells

(1): RCEnigma

Xtoxm

(1): shos

Not voting (2): Bellaphant, Xtoxm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to end the day.
Deadline is set to 4 PM PST on January 31st, in (expired on 2020-01-31 20:00:00).

Off wagon confirmed town: Bella, RCE
Off wagon likely not group scum Xtom unless you want to confirm town me: Xtom,Me

On wagon one scum: Saudade

This game has at least three scum.
Unless you think it is exactly Me+Xtom as group scum (impossible as demonstrated before who is the neighbor) then one of two possibilities is required
>> Shos is scum OR
>> The entire scum team busses Saud when they had a mislynch in shos available

But waaait? I hear you say: what if Math is scum and shos is town?
Then Xtom has to be town/not group scum as mentioned before as a neighborize use would have happened as scum don’t shoot who they neighborize.

And not only that you’re still left with the uncomfortable position of at least one other scum on the wagon.

The most likely answer is shos and Saud are both scum and Saud was less valuable to them.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: an elk contemplating eternity

Vote Count 2.8

shos

(5): skitter30, Aristophanes, Iconeum, RCEnigma, teacher

RadiantCowbells

(2): MathBlade, Saudade

Aristophanes

(1): Flopz

Iconeum

(1): shos

Not voting (3): Bellaphant, Xtoxm, RadiantCowbells

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to end the day.
Deadline is set to 4 PM PST on January 31st, in (expired on 2020-01-31 20:00:00).

Flopz has been prodded; as he is V/LA I will not immediately replace him if the prod is not answered.

Shos at his highest point.

Bella and RC confirmed town off wagon
One confirmed scum off wagon
Overlapping people between the two wagons:
Skitter, Ari, Ico, and teacher

The only new person is Flopz. This is really the more damning VCA that says Flopz scum with Shos. Not what Titus is saying I still don’t get it.

Combine that with the unvote of shos earlier and still not pushing anyone I am okay with shos+Flopz.

It also would make sense with the VC here that Flopz was gonna push Ari.

[MathBlade]

When did xtomx claim hooded relative to Bella’s claim. Iirc, it was before the jk. I can’t check while at school, but that’s one of my main reasons to tr him, along with a completely believable portrayal of the hood thread and picking up details today.

On Ari, I don’t recall him pushing saud hard, but he’s my goal for a reread tonight.

No it was after. Iirc

[MathBlade]

since someone asked who was in the hood with tris/saud slot- that was me

Claim

[MathBlade]

I was only night 1 and 2, technically I was an alien but it worked as a jk. If icos town pr also has limits on it, that makes sense?
Ive been town reading you since day one ico, but you must be able to see why I'm a bit concerned right now.

Not masses, but I'll go back and find, ico

Bella’s claim

[shos]

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

Also possible: scum hood scum so that come D3 there's a hood with 2 scums and 1 town, much bigger sway to pocket him.
It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

i checked and it was after.
not really sure what the difference there is tho?

It’s less of a reason to rely on that, since scum!you would know the attempt to hood RCE failed and so the claim was safe. I’m still inclined to credit especially with today’s play, but that’s the relevance.

If you believe that theory then you have to believe scum attempted to kill me.

They wouldn’t attempt to hood AND kill RCE so then they would have to have shot me in that world.

...we lynched RCE, he wasn't killed. Ico's protection makes that possible.

That was in reference to N1

If your theory is Xtom is lying then scum and scum attempted to neighborize RCE
Then they don’t kill him as well.

What we did on D3 irrelevant to N1 unless scum are psychic

I'm missing something
N1 saudade hoods xtomx her partner
Then dies

What has RCE got to do with it

[shos]

Xtom is town or traitor* mainly I don’t see a world in which Xtom is group scum here.

Same with Ico I don’t see that either. 2 players out of 8 not group scum.

Let’s look at Saudade wagons on d1 and D2 since again start from place of knowledge

I did forget this option

Either town
Or scum group in preparation for D3
Or scum traitor