[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Not Known 15]

I think that mafia should bus each other. Informed townie is very unlikely to vote Donnie, so the easiest way is to check which PT Access member receives reluctance. If town rolles 7~8 informed roles then they have really low chance to win.

Unlikely. The game ends only when all ppl with Mafia PT Access have died... including Donnie. The Mafia PT lynch with the LEAST resistance is probably either Donnie or the bus initiated by Donnie.

[Jingle]

Is the accuse action public or private? If private, I'd suggest that DB doesn't need to be able to accuse, and it's honestly probably more interesting that way.

I dig the mafia into a game of magic train dynamic. It seems pretty awkward that 2 goons being lynched early means DB needs to pretend to be scum and still get lynched before endgame. It might be better to have it end 48 hours after the last mafia goon is lynched and prevent accuses from being changed once they've been cast. That way town doesn't have to theater a game of mafia where all the mafia are dead. OTOH, it would definitely be interesting to see two consecutive goon lynches and a low number of informed and watch DB accidentally endgame. In which case... What happens?

[Jingle]

Oh, also there should probably be a separate town and mafia dead pt, since correct play from town after being lynched is just to never post again which defeats the point of a dead thread.

[DrDolittle]

That way town doesn't have to theater a game of mafia where all the mafia are dead.

I thought that's a feature and not a bug! Though once more town gets a buff if that were the case, since mafia gets "more" information from the theater maybe. I'm think of adding a loyal neighbourizer instead of masons to bump up town power and be more coordinated in theater.

You are right. Let's make a private accusation and Donnie doesn't need to accuse.

it would definitely be interesting to see two consecutive goon lynches and a low number of informed and watch DB accidentally endgame. In which case... What happens?

Well, Donnie stays alive for the rest of the game, Mafia can correctly guess since there is one player left who is donnie so mafia wins

a low number of informed

I'm thinking just to ask town players when confirming to given teh number of informs they'd like, take the median, and randomly distribute. Or I can ask Donnie his preference. Or I can just set it to be 3. decisions decisions.

Oh, also there should probably be a separate town and mafia dead pt, since correct play from town after being lynched is just to never post again which defeats the point of a dead thread.

people's egos are too big to never post again, but we could just have the mafia never leave the Mafia PT even after death, and not go to the dead PT

[Jingle]

I'm thinking just to ask town players when confirming to given teh number of informs they'd like, take the median, and randomly distribute. Or I can ask Donnie his preference. Or I can just set it to be 3. decisions decisions.

Honestly, it probably doesn't meaningfully impact the game balance past whether it's known/unknown. There's upsides and downsides to both high and low numbers of informed, so any method of deciding should be fine.

I'd probably go with the first option to give players the illusion of being important though.

[DrDolittle]

realized an issue: if 1 goon and 1 donnie is alive and its 5p, and townie 1 has 1 vote, if groon votes townie 1 and donnie doesn't quick hammer, then donnie is confirmed to scum as donnie.

I just need to add to the rules that all members of the alive in the PT cannot vote for the same person. This adds in additional VCA deduction power from town, which should bias the the game to the town side again

[popsofctown]

If town votes town in 5p LyLo, scum is supposed to win. That doesn't seem like a bug. I would avoid the awkward voting rule and add as many VTs as it takes for it to be a balanced game even if Donnie has to behave like a goon in LyLo sometimes.

[DrDolittle]

what about 5p lylo with 3 towns 1 groon and one donnie brasco

[DrDolittle]

dang then if that's the case it has to be an open game and open games fill slow joe

[Jingle]

I don't think you need to add any VTs, but I agree that the voting rule is a no go.

If 5p LYLO you can force 2 scummiest players to vote for 3rd scummiest player together to confirm they're not a scumteam. Only the two towniest players will be able to hammer. It's a risky confirm strat, but not one that should exist in the first place.

(Or a Mini Theme)

[BBmolla]

Citizens Mafia

5 Players (3 Town, 2 Mafia)

10 Citizens

8 Vanilla Townies
1 Town Jailkeeper
2 Mafia Goons

In this game, players do not lynch each other.
Instead there are two citizens that each player knows the alignment of, leading to 10 citizens total.
For every town player, their two citizens are town.
For every scum player, one citizen is town, the other is scum.
Players are alive all game and lynch whichever citizen they please every day.
Mafia selects a citizen to kill every night. They can kill their own.
During the day, in MYLO or LYLO, the Mafia’s citizens are lovers. If a Town citizen dies as a result of this, there is no nightkill.
One random citizen, with a Town Player, is a Jailkeeper.
The first lynch reveals the alignment of the Player as well. This means if a Mafia's Town Citizen is lynched, they are still revealed to be Mafia.

Any glaring issues?

[popsofctown]

I'm having trouble parsing what the setup is.

[BBmolla]

I'm having trouble parsing what the setup is.

What's confusing

[BBmolla]

Like it'd look like this:

Citizens
Abe
Bill
Cole
Dominique
Eva
Fran
Gail
Hubert
Ike
Jack

Players
DoomLlama666 (Knows alignments of Abe and Bill)
YargonxXx (Knows alignments of Cole and Dominique)
Smeeb (Knows alignments of Eva and Fran)
Dominic12345 (Knows alignments of Gail and Hubert)
JimSox (Knows alignments of Ike and Jack)

Two of these players are Mafia, with one Town Citizen and one Mafia Citizen.
Three of these players are Town, with two Town Citizens.

Town players want to lynch all Mafia Citizens
Mafia players want Mafia Citizens to equal or outnumber Town Citizens

Players vote for Citizens to lynch instead of players

JimSox is scum, let's lynch Ike?
VOTE: Ike

[popsofctown]

Yes it's easier to follow now. Clarifying that it's not a 26 player setup helps (you listed that there are 10 citizens, and 8+1+2 roles, and since that's 11 it makes it seem like the roles aren't citizens). "players" seems like a troublesome term for non-citizens because the citizens still have to queue up for the game.

It's unclear whether Citizens are voteless. If they are, their engagement might drop to the point they are difficult to read.

This seems incredibly townsided right on its face? 7:2 JK would be a newbie setup the is considered to have a weak town but not massively so, and you're stacking on top of that an additional townie, 3 additional "town hydra heads", and a public cop shot every time a player is lynched.
If the Citizens can't vote, then every single lynch is decided with 60% town control of the lynch, which isn't quantifiable town power but is an incredibly scumsiding dayplay dynamic that is likely able to overcome even these advantages. It's sort of untested territory, it is difficult to design a setup that stays in perpetual LyLo. My concern for voteless citizens is engagement, which isn't a balance concern. If I was designing the setup I would move the power from the JK into some kind of nominate a PR gimmick that only the citizens vote on just so the citizens have something to do.

[BBmolla]

Sorry

Citizens are like robots, nobody plays for them

[BBmolla]

It's just five players

[popsofctown]

Then how is a citizen a jailkeeper?? It has to aim?

[DrDolittle]

im not opposed to citizen's mafia, but I don't understand why it has to be played with 5 players? Then all the rules following it seems to be such that the game is balanced around 5

[DrDolittle]

Citizens Mafia Modified

7 Players (5 Town-aligned, 2 Mafia-aligned)

14 Artifacts

11 Named Vanilla Artifacts
1 Named Jailkeeping Artifact
2 Named Evil Artifacts

In this game, players do not lynch each other, instead they vote to purge artifacts.
Each player owns two artifacts whose name is public knowledge. The alignment (normal, evil) and ability of the artifacts is not.
For every town player, neither of their artifacts are evil.
For every scum player, one is evil and one is not.
Players are alive all game and purge whatever artifacts they please every day.
Mafia selects an artifact to destroy every night. They can destroy their own.
One random artifact allows the owner to perform a jailkeep action. This artifact is always owned by town.

Win condition for Town: Remove all Evil Artifacts. Win condition for Mafia: Remove all Normal Artifacts.

[BBmolla]

Ayy that looks much better than what I suggested

[BBmolla]

Might be beneficial to replace the Jailkeeper with a Cop that gets back one of the Artifacts the player owns that is town.

Could have two of them tbh.

Idk, feels incomplete atm.

[Jingle]

I feel like the setup is townsided.

The first lynch either confirms an artifact as town or scum, and a JK means that the confirmed town artifact is unkillable or the confirmed scum artifact's lynch makes the JK a full cop. Similarly, the JK's partner is a mason. If the JK claims, mafia still only have a 50% to accurately target them.

tl;dr: there are a LOT of potential clears here. I do like the idea, but I don't think a protective role fits in the setup at all.

EDIT: removed a paragraph talking about unassigned artifacts, as that appears to have been a mistake on my part.

[Blatant Scum]

If I lose both artefacts, can I vote/ kill?
Jailkeeper targets both artefacts of a player?
Mafia destroying is public?

[popsofctown]

Yeah, it's a treestumping setup. Which makes me less pumped.