Mini Normal 2118: Boon Gets Pretentious - [Day 4]

[Luca Blight]

Null-Town on both. Need to see more from Karnage in particular.

I’m off to bed now.

[Luca Blight]

I'll just sum up in the next few posts why I strongly believe Insomnia is scum this game.

603: Ame asked Insomnia what he thought of what had occurred (recent interactions with Frost and Ame) and Insomnia responds that he doesn't agree with Ame's thought, but does agree that I'm scummy. Now, bearing in mind Insomnia had read nothing of what Ame asked him about, why does he say that he doesn't agree rather than admitting he hasn't read it here?

Insomnia then goes into the stuff he already said about me earlier as if it was some new insight, regarding my reads of Flips and Ame.

604: Insomnia then quotes a bunch of my posts without any context of why he quoted them, and comments on literally one part of one post from the eleven he quoted. He's trying to make it seem like he has a case by quoting a load of irrelevant stuff while commenting on less than 10% of it. The post in question came during my catch-up, and was a rhetorical question to make a point, which is pretty obvious once you look at it for more than a second, and Insomnia refuses to accept this even though I've explained it at least two or three times. Insomnia seems to be implying I'm scum with Flips here, by saying I'm distracting from his wagon, but later says my read is just TMI and I'm scum independent of Flips, which seems like he's trying to have it both ways.

605: This is such a weak push that you can tell from the tone of Insomnia's post that he doesn't even believe in it. Btw, he clearly has so much time to post during this time, so why hasn't he caught up on the relevant stuff before rushing forward with this SR on me?

610: Says I've been pushing all Town slots, which would be a wild assumption for D1 if Insomnia is actually Town. Insomnia is SR'ing me here for not seeing how different Frost apparently is from the last game, yet if he read my posts he would see I had admitted Frost has been different, but I don't find the difference to be town-indicative. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and Frost's play this game isn't Townie just because his approach is different from his last scum game. The fact Insomnia is assuming so heavily that a) Frost is Town and b) anyone who doesn't see it is scum based on how Frost responded to his early pressure is complete nonsense, and seems like TMI to me. Again, if he had read my Frost case he'd have seen that I'd related Frost's play before he was TR to after he was TR, which was one of the foundations of my SR.

[Luca Blight]

Because I trust my town reads? To be fair you are pushing the obvious ones, it’s not like you’re pushing the people I’m unsure of.

Your flippy read is TMI.

Your Aaron push is bad.

Your Ame progression was scum.

That’s the case.

Your Aaron push is bad

Assuming my push is bad without having read it?

That is not Townie sorting. That is fabricating a narrative which suits him, and is entirely scum-indicative.

[Luca Blight]

Is that an actual thought you have? Lmfao

If you’re gonna push my top town read, especially when we have the same experience with them (Aaron), then why the fuck wouldn’t I scum read you for not seeing what I’m seeing?

He’s playing so differently than his scum game that there’s no world where this guy is scum

And you not seeing it of course is gonna make me scum read you more

If you were Town, why wouldn't you read the push on your top TR to actually assess whether it was bad?

Because he's not really sorting. He has preconceived ideas of what his reads are, rather than coming to them in a natural way.

[Luca Blight]

BRO WHAT???????????????

IT’S LITERALLY ONE GAME DIFFERENCE APART

nah whoever’s not on this is scum claiming

I’m tunneled

Is this a natural reaction to someone essentially saying

'just because Frost is playing differently, doesn't mean his alignment is different'

?

Does he really, truly believe that this is a 'scum claim'? Complete nonsense.

[Luca Blight]

The simple fact that Aaron has been diametrically opposite of his scum game which was his last one before this

And you even suggesting “he would strive to improve” while neglecting how hard it is for someone to switch up their meta from a game to another

Is just scum.

God may protect the ones who are opposing this lynch as I’ll personally unleash the fury of a century upon them

Here he is trying to intimidate the other players in the game into agreeing with his ridiculous assertion.

[Luca Blight]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/8KWf_-ofYgI[/youtube]

Yeah i didn’t really read your posts last game tbh as you were low impact, I actually remember saying pretty much nothing about you except for “he’s town” and then just left it at that (sorry if it sounded rude but that’s how it went for me)

I just remember me tunneling him and lynching him and you looking town off it because you were pushing him, didn’t read nothing into it as he was already caught from my pov before you even decided to probe him before he slipped

Notice the sudden change of tone here when he realises he is being called out for not having read my actual Frost push in the first place. I didn't even get what point he was trying to make at the time, but it's clear now he was trying to preemptively explain away his lack of reading by saying

'yeah but I didn't read your posts last game'.

Even if that were true, he SR's me this game so what is his excuse for not reading my posts? A Townie doesn't ignore someone's posts and just assume they are definitely scum because they came to a different conclusion on someone as he did.

[Ame]

There's one explanation I can think of for townSomni's reasoning there, but I'll let him explain so as not to put words in his mouth.

Luca, can you explain again why you think Clidd is town? Hectic pointed out how Clidd is being analytical as expected. And the reasoning behind many of his reads is unreasonable. That isn't suspicious to you?

Also, you are town reading Clidd and Flippy because you believe their posting style aligns to their town meta. Why are you not extending Aaron that same freedom? You're claiming that his actions are more important than his style, correct? Why does that not apply to flippy and Clidd here?

[Ame]

how Clidd isn't* being analytical

[Luca Blight]

My REASONING FOR TOWN READING FROST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW HE RESPONDED TO YOU

And this is also scum-indicative: Town players don't make up their mind about someone in the first few pages and then ignore evidence that could contradict their read.

Maybe Frost handled earlier pressure well, but if he later handles pressure just like his scum game then surely any Townie would take a moment to consider if they were wrong, especially when their read is so based on meta, as Insomnia's Frost read is.

[Luca Blight]

I don't know Clidd's Town meta. I know he hates playing as scum, so the fact he is actively contributing is indicative to me that he might be Town this game. Not a solid read, but enough for me to leave him be for now.

Flips is a special case. I have a strong gut read on him being Town, and I'm not going to try to explain it more but I definitely don't want him lynched today.

I've played with Frost a number of times now and have always read him correctly, but his game/style is rarely the same from one game to the next. I don't think the fact he's playing differently is at all indicative he's Town, because his play would be so easy to fake as scum.

[Ame]

Thank you, that makes sense. What do you think about Clidd's assumption that you have a secret scum read on him but aren't voicing it in order to keep his vote on your side?

[Luca Blight]

I haven't caught up on some stuff as I've been focused on Frost, you and Insomnia so I'll need to read back again.

I don't have a secret SR on him - my read on him is as I said. I can understand where he's coming from, though; pretending not to SR someone as much as I do is something I've done before, but not in this instance.

[Ame]

Spoiler:

And I think it's unreasonable that you're SR'ing me so strongly because I disagree on Frost.

If you want to admit that your perfect record on Aaron is now broken, I'll drop it

(But not really)

Seriously, your apparent confidence that Frost is Town based on the above is disturbing to me.

Although I kind of agree with this, I tend to get worried that I'm being pocketed whenever people overly townread me.

I can't help it that you're obvious

@Clidd looks like your intuition was wrong.

No,

absolutely not

. Of course, he may be confused, or even acting sporadically, but he remains town. The point where he looked for my two games, was where I became convinced of that. It would be very easy to push me to get lynched based on the premise of Hectic, for example, which creates a parallel with the effort that I usually apply in some matches. Considering that he did not act according to 3 or 4 scenarios in which he could definitely have achieved my lynch today, it is plausible to confirm him as locktown (at least in my view). It is also likely that he still has a strong SR on me, but prefers to simulate an apathy about it in exchange for my collaboration, judging that statistically, it is advantageous to have support in the voting phase, regardless of alignment.

Him not acting in the way you think would be optimal for him as scum is not a town tell. And the idea that he has a secret SR on you is entirely unwarranted and you know it.

And yes, I am inclined to agree with his conclusions. However, I don't know if it became notorious, but it seems quite obvious that he is instigating Aaron's reaction right now. The dialogue between both was not purely accusatory, but suggestively informative. Luca is trying to sort out the peculiarities of Aaron's behavior in this game, disregarding the neutral standard he usually sets in his games. By doing this now, it becomes more unlikely that Aaron, in case of being scum, will be able to draw his way to the mid/late game, especially due to the verbal discrepancy and high potential for antagonization if, in fact, the 3-way or 4-way players occurs.

His read is serious, not investigative. He even stated that this is his first massive scum read.

Hum, no. There are no predefined limiters of what is or is not considered a towntell under points formulated from someone's subjective perception, especially if we enter the individual spheres of thought, which are shaped by experiences that diverge between players. So what for me can be a gigantic towntell, for you, however, can be null. I don't see why my speculation about a hidden SR is not valid, considering that a good strategic part of our thoughts are not transparent to the public. An example of this would be to tell your plan openly and expect it to work properly, when you could have used the element of surprise to enhance its effectiveness. And about his tone, obviously, it is not difficult to deduce the fact that Luca questioned more aggressively the reason for Aaron's behavior to collect information, as well as realizing that the seriousness content is relatively suggestive and tends to seek more firmness in the interaction between the two. In other words, try asking a criminal if he murdered a person in a friendly tone, I guarantee your answer will not be satisfactory.

Many tells are subjective, but they are still either valid or invalid. In this case, however, your town tell is objectively invalid. There are a number of reasons why Luca wouldn't push you:

• 1. He felt it would look bad pushing you. This particularly makes sense because he received early suspicions for his vote on you.
  2. He is playing cautiously and didn't feel there was a solid enough reason to push you.
  3. He felt it would be more advantageous for you to town read him than it would be to lynch you.

Only if you have evidence that eliminates each of these possibilities would your reasoning and tell be valid. Yet the evidence is actually in favor of point 1.

As for he having a secret scum read on you, it's a gross assumption about the mindstate of another that you simply have no foundation for.

[Ame]

About to go back to sleep, but will just reply to a couple of points before I do:

Different play doesn’t mean different alignment. Insomnia, Ame and apparently myself are all playing differently this game, and yet it seems objectively impossible we could all be a different alignment from the last game. Frost being inquisitive isn’t a town tell - he’s asking passive questions which is the easiest thing to fake.

It's not simply a matter of you and Aaron playing differently, it's

how

. There's a number of aspects in Aaron play that are so different than his scum play a game ago, it's not reasonable to think that he made such improvements in such a short amount of time. This is especially the case because these are features that no one really explicitly scum read him for in the previous game. It's not like we sat down with him and pointed out the scummy aspects of his play. In such a case, it would make sense for him to have changed those features in his next scum game, but that is not so. These features include:

• Overexplaining his process. Example 1. Example 2.
  
• Backing down when faced with pressure. Example 1 (same as above). Example 2.
  
• Overconfident reads. Example 1. Example 2. Example 3. This one is particularly telling since it's a characteristic he's shown across multiple games.

Theses are all underlying features of his scum play that he most likely was not aware of, and he is exhibiting the opposite of this game: explaining the minimum of his process and only when asked (for example he's completely ignored my multiple requests for him to explain how he didn't pick up on my sarcasm), failing to back down when faced with pressure (both his reaction to Somni and to you were confident/not appeasing), and unconfident reads.

There are also a couple of tone differences (friendly tone in his scum game, standoffish tone here), but I'm excluding that because that

is

something that is easily alterable. To so drastically alter these other characteristics, however, would require (1) awareness that they exist, (2) an understanding of how to properly alter them, and (3) practice! The fact that Aaron has (according to he and you) made little progress of his scum game up to now and the fact that his last scum game was just one game ago, it's quite unlikely that his play here is the result of deliberate alterations.

So @Luca, now that I have explained this, do you still think Aaron is scum?

I don’t know for sure but based on my evaluation right now, these are my thoughts

Stop cherrypicking. Of course I’m gonna scum read you even more if you can’t see certain players that I deem as obvious town as town. What do you even mean????

I mean your point is nonsense. If you’re Town you can’t assume I’m scum based on the assumption that I’m pushing players who are Town. You’re pushing me and Flippy, and I strongly believe we are both Town, so I should use that as a reason you’re scum rather than misguided Town? Oops, more bravado.

I don't know about Somni, but for me it's not about someone scum reading a town read, it's about you in particular misreading Aaron. I'd feel the same way if it were Insomnia. I don't feel this way about dsjstr because I don't know his history with Aaron. But I do know that you two just played in a game with scum Aaron. And you have shown a particular interest in reading him correctly.

[Luca Blight]

Insomnia whole play this game has a weak, disengaged, half-hearted feel to it. Take his early 'push' on Frost for example:

Spoiler:

VOTE: ame

Something about this vote makes me want to say it’s probably townier than Aaron but I won’t explain why so don’t @ me

VOTE: Aaron

I'm sure you've felt the imminence of a tunnel before.

Except that you haven't said it was her entrance, you quoted the following post.

Also, minor but potentially major thing,

"something worth pushing"

hmmmmmm

Ame's opening was the only one that has caught your attention?

I can kind of see your premise for the push, but the part that bothered me was that you followed upon it only later, which read to me as weird because it's attempted to look like a joke while technically you're pushing out of RVS, it felt very agenda-y in that sense. As in, it's disguised as RVS, has a snarky tone to it but isn't flat out stating a suspicion. And you saying the wall is scummy and the voting being focused on something else strikes me as odd, as I'd imagined the vote and your initial accusation / gut feel should've been a contiguous thought, whereas that waiting period made it seem like you were baiting reactions from other people so as to see how they felt about Ame's wall and judging whether it was worthy of a push or not. Also why i pointed out the "something worth pushing" whereas I would've expected town to say "It's scummy" as opposed to "worthy of pushing" because it involves two different mentalities. Scum look at what pushes they can get away with, and town pushes for things that are actually gonna make someone flip scum.

There is zero conviction behind this push, and yet the ensuing replies from Frost apparently under 'pressure' were enough to be locked town in Insomnia's eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if this is s/s and Insomnia is creating a reason to TR Frost.

For what it's worth, I don't think TR'ing Frost based on his replies is unreasonable, as I felt the same at the time, but I think it's unreasonable to take his responses as being obvtown even in light of further evidence which might contradict this view, and after such an impotent 'push'.

[Luca Blight]

@Ame, I'm focusing on my Insomnia read atm. I will catch-up on the rest of the thread and review Frost again when I'm done.

[Luca Blight]

I already touched on this but this is most likely a town post because scum wouldn't even care to assume such a stance

Unfortunately this isn’t accurate. Regardless of alignment when people cross the line, I care and will make sure they get punished one way or another. The site mods don’t enforce rules unfortunately so I have to just make sure they die.

this post makes you even more town if anything so like...

Insomnia's whole interaction with Wimpy felt like he was trying to avoid conflict. The post above in particular felt like a pocketing attempt.

[Luca Blight]

Well that read on Ame is now out the window

VOTE: flippy

Only relevant thing I got as of right now

Again, another weak push on Ame that is dropped too easily for my liking. He ends up settling on the easy option which is Flips - Insomnia is treading a path of little resistance while making it look like he's sorting with ineffectual pushes which are dropped prematurely and never revisited.

Insomnia in the last game was really paranoid about Ame. I think Ame (certainly up until this point) had been far less town than that game, so this easy acceptance that she's town based on her explanation for her Wimpy progression, which could just as easily have been scum progression as Town progression, is a red flag.

[Ame]

Regarding timing, it's probably from being V/LA and in general being in a different time zone to most players. I usually have to catch-up on loads of pages each day.

Regarding soft pushes, I haven't had reason to massively SR anyone until now. I don't see my push on Frost as being soft.

I think I'm finally able to articulate what is unnatural about your voting. I don't think it's a time zone thing. It's not about the time of day you voted, but how you've voted relative to your other votes and to your explanations.

Spoiler:

VOTE: ame

You naked voted here.

Early good feels from dsjstr and Flips, bad feels from Ame and Hectic.

Explained it was serious here.

Their post is so inoffensive and nice, it feels like they’re trying to get on people’s good sides.

But didn't bother to explain why until asked here. This doesn't read like someone trying to figure me out because you only explained your reasoning when prodded. Since you didn't initially provide anything for me to react to, you wouldn't have learned anything about me based on response.

VOTE: Clidd

I don’t like how he’s ignoring this game.

With Clidd here you provide minimal reasoning. Again, it's a vote that someone isn't really likely to react to.

So far, yes. Not sure I like Luca's clidd vote though.

I have reason to believe Clidd doesn’t like playing as scum, and he’s ignoring this game while being active on site.

I hate making reads on stuff like this, but it is what it is.

It wasn't until Aaron voiced suspicion, that you explained and actually gave a reason for Clidd to react.

This also ties into the soft pushes. It doesn't feel like you're trying to sort me. There's been a few times that you've asked me questions without ever following up. And for some reason, I'm still in your scum pool despite the realization that my "I'm mean" line wasn't serious. Btw, you read it as a joke at first, correct? At what point/what caused you to later interpret it as serious?

[Luca Blight]

364, 368 - Insomnia throws some weak points out there against me. I respond fully in 383 but Insomnia never acknowledges is, which again seems like he isn't actually trying to sort me.

When I make my own suspicions against Insomnia he merely replies 'lol Luca I'm not scum'. This feels really off-character from my experience with him. He isn't trying to either sort or engage me, like he's unsure of whether to commit to his push.

[Luca Blight]

'With Clidd you provide minimal reasoning'

Lol, he had one naked vote my that point. What were you expecting?

I didn't explain my vote on you until a little later as I wanted to see how others would react to it.

I believe I said earlier that I was less sure on my read of you after realising it was a joke, Ame.

[Luca Blight]

Btw, I don't subscribe to the 'everything must be explained at once' way of playing. I give my reasons as they occur to me, as I'm doing here with Insomnia.

Sometimes I have a gut read on someone but the reasons take a little longer to develop, which appears to be the case for you as well. Sometimes I simply feel like waiting a little before giving my reasons.

[Ame]

What I mean by minimal reasoning is that you failed to provide the reasoning you later gave in response to Aaron. The latter reasoning is much more likely to provoke a response than your initial soft vote.

You wanted to see how others would react to my post or your vote?

You stated that you initially interpreted it as a joke, but then read it as serious. What caused you to later think it was serious?

[Luca Blight]

I think voting Clidd for ignoring the game was sufficient to provoke a reaction. I didn't feel the need to reveal the further information right away.

Both, but more your post.

Because you continued to make out that you were being mean in that post, from what I recall.