Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Chemist1422]

that’s a lotta wallposts

I’m gonna take a shower then try to reread from SoD

[Amrun]

Amrun i feel has been engaging more naturally with the list as a whole.

Really?

Cause personally I've felt that engaging with Amrun has had all the difficulty of leading a camel through the eye of a needle, and has since I replaced in.

Really? Why do you think that?

I’ve openly answered any and all questions asked to me, and asked plenty of my own. I think you’re the only who feels this way which shows you’re incorrect, and is probably a product of my frustration with your attitude when you replaced in.

I know Chara gave you the benefit of the doubt and said “oh he must have said he was phone posting and I forgot.” You DIDN’T. You never said your total lack of engagement with the game was simply pending you getting computer time and had an expiration date. You were obstinate and not helpful at all for anyone trying to engage you. You said something about a half assed Bingle being better than a no assed slot, clearly implying that wasn’t likely to change.

You walking this back now is really frustrating for me and perhaps scum indicative, but I don’t want to argue about it and ruin the progress we have made. I would like to continue to talk to you, and you haven’t responded to any of the things you’ve asked me, either.

If my read of your slot is wrong, convince me. You aren’t trying to do that, nor do you seem to me to be trying to actually sort me, and to me that feels like you have decided that I am the player you are going to push regardless, which is what scum do. Also, I don’t see why you need to “see where the thread goes” to post an already typed case of me. Help me understand the motivation for this.

[Amrun]

And for the record I’m ALWAYS phone posting. It’s not a great excuse.

[Replica]

The best part of this is I answered Farkran's question twice and he still didn't realize it.

[Amrun]

The best part of this is I answered Farkran's question twice and he still didn't realize it.

What do you think about Bingle saying he was only disengaged due to being on the phone which is over now, but never mentioning that before?

[Amrun]

I feel like I need a different perspective on it.

[Replica]

I don’t think there’s a question he’s working backwards, just whether or not it’s AI.

I'm sorry, what? This is one of the few things I think is 100% broadly scum

[Amrun]

I don’t think there’s a question he’s working backwards, just whether or not it’s AI.

I'm sorry, what? This is one of the few things I think is 100% broadly scum

I think town can do it by accident... like confirmation bias or whatever.

But I’m voting to fight Farkran so etc.

[Replica]

What do you think about Bingle saying he was only disengaged due to being on the phone which is over now, but never mentioning that before?

He didn't bring it up until it was asked. I think it's fine; he didn't go out of his way to use it as an excuse at any point earlier. He did mention the phone once when saying why he wasn't bothering to unvote.

My impression was that he was probably busy and/or didn't care, it doesn't surprise me too much to learn that it was the former and that the latter followed when he got a computer.

[Replica]

That's fair, Nacho also was going back and forth as to whether it was that or conf bias, I think his interactions with me specifically (especially the Day 1 push) are what point strongly towards him starting with the outcome then getting the read, rather than starting with the read and making up bad reasons to follow.

[Amrun]

What do you think about Bingle saying he was only disengaged due to being on the phone which is over now, but never mentioning that before?

He didn't bring it up until it was asked. I think it's fine; he didn't go out of his way to use it as an excuse at any point earlier. He did mention the phone once when saying why he wasn't bothering to unvote.

My impression was that he was probably busy and/or didn't care, it doesn't surprise me too much to learn that it was the former and that the latter followed when he got a computer.

I was needling him pretty hard about it though. Idk just feels weird to me but I can’t put my finger on it.

[Replica]

I actually hadn't fully parsed your Bingle post before responding to that.

I know Chara gave you the benefit of the doubt and said “oh he must have said he was phone posting and I forgot.” You DIDN’T. You never said your total lack of engagement with the game was simply pending you getting computer time and had an expiration date. You were obstinate and not helpful at all for anyone trying to engage you. You said something about a half assed Bingle being better than a no assed slot, clearly implying that wasn’t likely to change.

You walking this back now is really frustrating for me and perhaps scum indicative, but I don’t want to argue about it and ruin the progress we have made. I would like to continue to talk to you, and you haven’t responded to any of the things you’ve asked me, either.

Reading it, a few things stick out to me:

Halfassed Bingle can always change, my interpretation was don't count on it. I don't think his phone posting is the only reason for his disengagement, it's just the elephant in the room. My intuition for him coming to take more interest in the game in general though may be wrong.

I'm really struggling to see why this isn't both plausible and even expected of Bingle town. His initial halfassed approach is arguably bad/cynical play, but he didn't go out of his way to make an excuse, and just owned that he was halfassing. His stance was "Just make them deal with it" is about what I'd expect from town Bingle here. The real issue to me seems that he didn't really want to promise that he'd tryhard later, which is...unfortunately still exactly what I expect from Bingle.

[Bingle]

Snip

My issues with your engagement stem largely from having to ask you the same question multiple times to get an answer, a complete lack of any answer when I don't follow up, and a general lack of you doing anything at all wrt the posts I make that are solvey.

For example, I asked twice about why the psyche kill was weird and it was only on the second pass that you acknowledged it.

When I asked for posts about where you mindmelded with Chara you linked posts where you said you mindmelded with Chara.

I attempted to engage you over my Fark read several times.

You have repeatedly accused me of lying about my inability to devote time to the thread when I was provably low impact site wide and had publicly posted the reason why, which is insulting at best and ACTUALLY an accusation of cheating.


Yeah, getting you to interact has definitely felt like pulling teeth and I'm interested in why Chara thinks otherwise.

As far as my activity:

Priority imo is getting Bingle caught up and Nacho in the game.

Good luck with that. I’ll skim some tonight but I straight up don’t have the free time to try hard here so I’m prolly just gonna look for someone to sheep.

I don't have time to tryhard doesn't imply in the slightest that if that situation changes I won't tryhard. It in fact implies the opposite. I didn't go into the fact that I was mostly unavailable because I'd posted as such into several games which are now over, such as Cult D3 (which had Hectic and Farkran and was brought up in this game) and Brass & Shrapnel (Which had Hectic and I intended to bring up in this game as soon as it finished.) Hell, I'm fairly certain you were at least peripherally aware that I wasn't as around as I wanted to be for NAI reasons given *reasons*.

And congratulations on your ability to phone post? My normal style is to have 6 or seven windows open and make my posts in notepad. I can't do that on the phone. I especially can't do that when I'm 2000 miles away from home with no Wifi and limited utilities. Sorry.

[Replica]

I dunno, I'd say that hypothetically he could be scummy for not making promises/excuses, but I've seen more town halfass and say "Well it's the town's fault if they lynch me for it" than I can count. I honestly hate the fact I'd even consider it more likely to come from town just because it's so garbage and I don't want to validate it.

I'll chew on it a bit more though, with the needling/progression aspects.

[Bingle]

I dunno, I'd say that hypothetically he could be scummy for not making promises/excuses, but I've seen more town halfass and say "Well it's the town's fault if they lynch me for it" than I can count. I honestly hate the fact I'd even consider it more likely to come from town just because it's so garbage and I don't want to validate it.

?

It's 100% NAI. My personal unavailability doesn't change based on what role PM I get. I wouldn't magically not be fixing a house to put on the market if I were scum any more than Amrun's daycare being shut down early day one would be affected by her role PM.

Either I was lying about RL across multiple games for an advantage in this one, which is explicitly cheating, or I was not lying and I didn't have the time to put my all into this game. Considering I was in Spokane when I repped in and had already announced that in both games I just mentioned, the "explicitly cheating" option is batshit insane.

[Replica]

I'm not accusing you of lying about your availability, I'm talking about your demeanor about the unavailability and my own personal speculation that you've just become more interested in the game over time to match.

[Replica]

As far as I can tell Amrun isn't accusing you of lying about your availability either, it's again about your demeanor and how you responded to questions about it.

[Bingle]

As far as I can tell Amrun isn't accusing you of lying about your availability either, it's again about your demeanor and how you responded to questions about it.

Eh. I went back to find the post I thought I read and couldn't, so maybe you're right and it was a fever dream. I'm still interested in seeing why Chara thinks Amrun has been readily interacting with people when I've had the opposite impression.

[Replica]

@the man who not my mamma

wat up big cho r u sure u don't want 2 spare 2day? if u do lmk, ttyl

[Bingle]

Alright, Amrun case time.

Spoiler: The IIOA Part

Early days, Amrun was mostly lurking until being specifically engaged by Nacho. (Note: not scummy behavior.) Immediately in the wake of this, Amrun picks up in activity, which also isn't particularly questionable given the stated reasoning for the lack of interaction and the desire to play with Nacho (although this point is where I start to doubt an S/S Nacho/Amrun). She gives a couple reads (Nacho/Chem town) without reasoning.

Then Amrun comes in with her real beginning of play, 146. Suji is scum for attempting to blend in, and Asriel is scum for being awkward, but Chemist is town for disagreeing that Asriel is scum for being awkward.

At this point, Suji has one real post which is actually a decent one about why Nacho is likely town. Asriel is fluffing hard.

And:

Sorry, how is Sujimichi trying to blend in? He's barely posted

A) I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary.

B) the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.

I find it interesting that you attribute your behavior to you as null but to me as trying to blend in and being scummy. I think if you honestly review the game at the point I replaced in, it was mostly jokes which I do not do well with analyzing. Nachomamma8 was the first player to, in my opinion, do something game advancing. Thus my townread. Then, due to real life reason (of which you also claimed) I was gone for yesterday and I will be absent this afternoon.

I would posit that you view me as easy lynch material and so are fabricating a reason to push me.

HURT: Amrun

That quote is an early days Suji post that I wholeheartedly endorse. Amrun is voting Suji for doing literally the same thing as Amrun.

Amrun walks back her reason saying she wasn't scumreading Suji for the first half of her reasoning (a direct response to the question of why Amrun thinks Suji is scummy) wasn't her reason for scumreading Suji. And that quiet, infrequent posts aren't the same as catch up posts. Let's do a back to back comparison here:

Suji: 4 fluff posts back to back and an explanation of a townread.
Amrun: 2 I'm not here yet posts, 2 mech posts, and 2 explanation-less townreads immediately after being called into the thread.

And Suji is townreading the same person as Amrun.

When confronted about why Amrun is tr-ing Nacho (twice):

1. I don’t really remember Nacho’s scumtells but he’s a good player and seems to be actively sorting and moving gamestate forward. We will do better if form together like two sides of a hatchet so for now I will treat him as town and re-eval as gamestate dictates.

tl;dr:



And... That's the end of that. That case disappears fully to policy wagon a lurker who is on V/LA, Asriel, in 254. There was no mention of Suji between 186 and that point, when Suji's "recent posts have been better". For the record the posts in between include Suji unvoting Amrun and mechposting, but there is content posts that could be quality in Amrun's eyes. Posts engaging with Chara, my slot, and the pine wagon.

Amrun votes Hectic for spare (L-2) but still hasn't talked about why Hectic is town.

Amrun is apparently pushing Suji as of now but her last two Suji mentions were:

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

Idk, I still think his statements about Nacho’s town case on Hectic is busywork at best. It clearly never intended to go anywhere. I DON’T like that.

In general, I like that he’s being active and producing content.

I definitely do not want to spare him today.

This change from an apparent townlean but not spare read to "IWASSCUMREADINGHERTHEWHOLETIME" comes as a direct response to Fark voting suji and commenting on the voting bloc of Amrun/Chara/Nacho. Fark, who she's still voting as a lurker read. Despite the fact that Asriel was replaced.

Speaking of Fark:

You say you are the primary pusher against sujimichi, and i did read your 1v1, placing you in the top slots of my readlist mainly because of that. In this re-read i compared the VCs to interactions, and once again i notice that you are having no issues with your primary scumread IMMEDIATELY sheeping you on a lurker slot that is now consensus scumread. I mean, sujimichi was voting the other lurker just ONE post prior to you voting my pred, then TEN posts later, in the same page, Sujimichi switch his vote on the other lurker - whose wagon was gaining traction - and you don't even question it? What makes you content with compromising with your strongest scumread, on a lurker slot no less?

And now, Amrun changed to Fark wagon from Suji not because recent posting improved, but because deadline consolidation. (Note: at the point of consolidation, Amrun joined a 1 vote lurker wagon, was not voting to spare, and there were 4 days until deadline.)

With a little bit of pressure, Amrun switches off of Fark onto Suji and unvotes the spare wagon. 4 days until deadline. And then immediately shades Suji who also unvoted Fark in favor of a not lurker wagon. Amrun then retracts this because she thought the wagon Suji had joined was a wagon started by Farkran, who had just convinced her to vote Suji.

Amrun's next shift is sheeping SH onto Psyche. For not having scumreads. This is the 6th mention of Psyche in Amrun's 79 posts. Previous mentions: Agreeing with Psyche tr-ing Nacho and responding to a quote containing Psyche's name and pointing out Pine and Psyche were mostly absent. Psyche, who at this point in the game had 10 posts. Yup, another lurker wagon.

And then, after Psyche's activity increases, Amrun switches to Alimdia in 747. Previous mentions of alimdia? When Farkran asked outright in 716: Not overly scummy, but amrun is okay lynching it. An associative with Farkran saying that they would necessarily be S/S in 655. And "she feels different than she did as scum" in 332. And... 751 gives the reason: Alimdia can be flashwagoned to make her produce content. So... Lurker wagon. Amrun hasn't changed her opinion on that lurker wagon since the end of Day 1. That lurker wagon she admittedly doesn't feel strongly about. That lurker wagon that boils down to alimdia's ISO looks like busy work.

Spoiler: Make Your Case

Amrun has pushed exclusively LHF wagons and consistently buddied Nacho. Her progression has consistently matched with the path of least resistance.

Suji, Asriel/Farkslot, Psyche, Me. From my PoV, I know that at least 3/4 of those are town slots, all of which were pushed with the weakest of reasoning. All of which (with the exception of me) were abandoned at the first sign of pushback. Her spares? Hectic, SH, and Suji, all well after they were consensus.

Her reasoning is internally inconsistent, as shown with her jump off of the Suji wagon for being townier recently and then her jump back on with the assertion she'd only switched to consolidate at EoD and had maintained the scumread the whole time. The alim meta evolved pretty substantially too, from Alimdia had trouble with read progression and was coached by a buddy to Alimdia played an extremely good scumgame. (For the record, I also caught Alimdia that game after replacing in as conftown and it wasn't particularly hard considering she claimed and then retracted in a particularly scummy fashion. Also, Ico flashlynched Amrun in my absence while I was especially unsure of her alignment.

tl;dr:
The majority of this case is admittedly BOP. Amrun is consistently pushing weak, easy cases on town. (Exclusively, in fact, if Fark is town.) There's also a few revisionist narratives where she switches the story behind her reasoning.




I would appreciate a 3rd party check to see if prevarication and lack of confidence are AI for her. Prevarication might be a town tell (I think I thought she was scum for it in the early days of D&D but was wrong and I don't recall it from Radja's ep 1 where I caught her as scum because of the setup). I don't recall any game with her where her reads have had this little in the way of confidence.

If anyone wants, these are the games I can remember that we've played together, although I could swear there were more.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... it=+jingle

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... it=+jingle

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... it=+jingle

[Amrun]

I think we fight today

If we hit scum, spare tomorrow
If we hit town, fight tomorrow

This is objectively the case.

If I'm put to Spare-1 I'd hammer, but we should be lynching today from a town perspective. We know D1 was a townspare, and D2 was likely a townspare in most people's eyes. However, if D2 was a scumspare then sparing another scum loses us the game. Routes 2 and 3 are the best routes, and lynching puts us in those routes exclusively.

Also, I'm available and have the time to read the whole game now, so I'll do that today/tomorrow. Honestly, I should have overnight because I knew I was going to be alive, but I played Arena instead.

To everyone confused by the Psyche kill, why?

Bingle, is this what you were referring to as the first time you asked the question about Psyche?

It wasn’t addressed to me, for starters. I probably just missed it. But more to the point, I talked to Replica about why it felt strange to me, so I probably figured that would suffice. I’m not sure why you keep acting like I didn’t already talk about that when I did?

[Amrun]

@Bingle’s 1862:

I think that your assertions about me here are disingenuous. I don’t recall you asking me anything twice. I addressed the Psyche thing above. If there are any other instances, I may have just forgotten or gotten distracted by other things. This is a content rich game and 27 wall posts per minute. Things get missed. Sorry if that happened but I honestly would be shocked if you found many, or any, examples besides the one discussed above which I think is unfair.

I re-read your Chara question just now and I can see where maybe you were asking for me to post CHARA posts that I mindmelded with. I misinterpreted, if so, because when you said you wanted me to point to where I thought that, I thought you meant that you wanted me to show where I had previously said it in thread. Either way, I showed what points of the game I felt that way. It was clearly an honest attempt to answer your question.

And as for accusing you of lying about activity, I have never done so. I don’t think you’re lying about activity in any capacity. I think your attitude upon replacing in was downright combative, and that you shouldn’t have taken a slot if you had no intention of EVER putting effort into it, which is what I thought you were saying (and still think you were saying). My annoyance is alleviated a lot because you HAVE read the game now, and can competently speak about it, which is all I wanted to start with. I think if you look back you’ll see quite a few posts where I expressed how disappointed I was that you were taking that stance because I was hoping to engage with you but I found no point in doing so since you didn’t read Th e game and had stated you didn’t have any intention of doing so. I even noted at the time that as the game went on, you’d build up to a point where your comments had a little context to them, but that wasn’t yet. I was pretty transparent about how I felt about it. I don’t understand how you can maintain this type of post I’m responding to in light of the actual words I posted about it at the time. It really doesn’t make sense to me. I’m trying very hard to sort whether it’s AI and I’m still not sure.

[Bingle]

Yes, that was addressed to you as one of the two people who thought the Psyche kill was odd.

I haven't decided how I feel about your response. I don't think

Yes but from the perspective of me, who is town, it is a bit bananas.

The only thought I have is nacho seemed very hellbent on townreading him in a way that would have been difficult to reverse. Probably Bingle too. Idk. That’s weak.

Is a particularly satisfying response to the question, though. You didn't actually give any reason.

You fixed that after I brought it up again later with your thought that he was a viable mislynch, but no, the original response was not in any way satisfactory to me.

Speaking of things addressed to multiple people that you haven't responded to I gather you appreciated 1783, could you talk about your Chem read? I know you were mindmelding with Chara but are feeling worse about it, but I can't recall your thoughts on Chem and I've spent a lot of time in your ISO the last couple of days.

I'd also be interested in your take on my conclusions there, particularly not wanting to lynch Fark before Chem.

[Chara]

Amrun i feel has been engaging more naturally with the list as a whole.

Really?

Cause personally I've felt that engaging with Amrun has had all the difficulty of leading a camel through the eye of a needle, and has since I replaced in.

in comparison to Chemist? yes.

maybe from your perspective she has not been, i really haven't been tracking her engagement with your slot specifically and i see your post on that, but when i think about her interactions with the game as a whole, yes. Chemist i've asked plenty of times to try and describe his reasons for his reads and gotten very little, besides the one on Farkran, and i find him hard to read due to the dearth of that content. he pops in and out but i don't feel like there's a lot of interaction besides his one time buckling down with Farkran. from what Replica's said it's not AI but it does make this harder.

i don't feel like missing questions or misunderstanding them is in general a scumtell though. moreso i find how Amrun has been doing it has come off as towny. she's made a fair few reachouts (Replica to my memory, you more recently, Nacho) that i was thinking of.

as an aside, apparently it's rude to "text" around family, when i came over here to be alone and was followed. go figure.

[Amrun]

To Bingle:

Ok, Hectic is town based off this page. Nice.


Oof this game is moving pretty slowly. Wish I had something more to add.

You said I never commented on Hectic and why I TR him, but I did. Before this, I stated I felt null on him, and then I stated that his postings on that particular page changed my mind. Like I’m not going to make a town case on like page 8? That’s plenty IMO.

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

No I agree! I want to hurt Sujimichi. But deadline was approaching (like fast) and I didn’t have anything new to present on Sujimichi to convince anyone. I didn’t want to cause us to no action. Sparing Hectic isn’t the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be nothing which we were headed to rapidly (and still kinda are).

Again, I don’t think you are quite understanding how slow this game is and how dangerously close we are to effectively no lynching. I specifically changed to asriel to consolidate, not because it’s my top choice at all. Voting with a scumread to achieve a lynch > no lynch

Also, my level of conviction is not high enough on Sujimichi that it really bothers me all that much tbh.

We are ~4 days to deadline now. Game might have been slow, but right now, with replacement extensions, we have plenty of time to avoid unnecessary no-flip sparing. I mean, even a lynch on my slot is better than sparing, but first i'd like to understand why you have been compromising on my pred as a lurker rather than lurker-pine, or sujimichi. I don't like my pred ISO too, but it's like 10 posts, and after learning my role PM my POV requires me to be wary of people opportunistically joining my wagon. Sujimichi was the vote that struck me most, and i am wondering why it didn't strike you (@amrun) as well.

As I previously explained, it DID strike me, but wasn’t really relevant since I was using his hurt to get us closer to goal. Scum can bus, but more likely, one of my early scumreads is wrong so using one to get the other doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

No I agree! I want to hurt Sujimichi. But deadline was approaching (like fast) and I didn’t have anything new to present on Sujimichi to convince anyone. I didn’t want to cause us to no action. Sparing Hectic isn’t the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be nothing which we were headed to rapidly (and still kinda are).

I agree with you on this and I’ll work with you on suji despite my reservations if it lets us avoid sparing

HURT: suji

HEAL: unvote

Oooh it’s so nice to be able to read your posts without hurting my brain!!!

UNVOTE: heal[/heal]

HURT: Sujimichi

In case I was still on Asriel, can’t remember. As Farkran has correctly pointed out, we now have a little deadline breathing room, so let’s use it.

@Sujimichi:

-Honestly, I simply am not rehashing why I felt you were blending in. I explained that as much as I care to already. I will add though that voting to fight nacho when you did, and also for asriel, are right in scum sweet spots for “going with the flow” and further my “blending” read of you.

-Chara’s explanation of my post is basically correct. I never retracted my feelings about blending in. I was saying I didn’t scumread you based on post count etc.

-Not writing a thesis restating something that was JUST said is not someone “not really agreeing.” I’m not annotating a bibliography for shit found readily in thread. I was referring to Farkran’s points about you doubling down on a scumread of his slot without it seeming genuine. This impression was furthered by you inviting when Farkran pressured you, all the while stating you don’t respond to pressure.

-You’re allowed to vote whomever you want. I’m allowed to scumread you for it.

-For awhile, you seemed less concerned with optics to me and to be loosening up a little, bit not anymore.

Honestly I’m not going to break down the entire thing piece by piece. I’m highlighting the meat of my progression on Sujimichi, and how many times I am ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that I am consolidating onto Asriel.

I think you cannot understand the gamestate in this timeframe unless you were playing in real time, which is tbh e same thing I said to Farkran upon replace in. NOTHING was happening. We kept running into deadlines and the only thing that would give us room is replacements, and we weren’t close to ANY resolution on ANY slot. I was looking for any wagon - almost on anyone, at that point - to try and breathe some life into the game. It was a very different gamestate than it is now.

Nacho hasn’t done anything scummy in my eyes. All the “cases” on him seem nebulous and some of them seem opportunistic.

I’m not so overly sure he’s town but I think lynching him because he has a high reputation and has had a V/LA in the middle of the phase making it difficult for him to engage is ridiculous.

He’s a townread but the fisticuffs is about the annoyance of lynching day 1 the best player in the game for shit reasons. I joined to play with him. Idk Undertale and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to play with Nacho.

town for me, but i don't see anything he's done as loserish.
in fact, i was a little paranoid when he first locked us as town.
but he's obviously very experienced so maybe he's just that good that he can instantly tell someone's town based on style of posting alone.
and loser!Nacho coming in to push through a SPARE on town day 1 seems like an odd strategy, dontcha think?
unless he thinks it gives him significant towncred but that doesn't really work without flips for SPAREs.
hell if i know.
welp, i see that you and my old pal Sujimichi have had a lot to talk about while i was gone.
i'll get to that tonight.

I agree and frankly, if he was going to fake a confident townread on someone to spare them and get them out of his hair, I would not have expected it to be you. Especially after arguing against sparing.

A better scum strat for that is to pick someone who is familiar and a threat to pocket/remove threat by sparing.

You said I didn’t explain my nacho TR either, but I did. I don’t think a great scum strategy is to come
in and make a somewhat weak meta case why someone is town, after saying we should fight instead of spare. It just doesn’t make sense unless that’s what nacho believes, unless he’s scum with Hectic but I don’t think he is.

Interesting, about Sujimichi. I’m hesitant to give a clear for this reason, but I acknowledge it has weight. At the very least, it’s probably better not to fight there today. Blegh.

HURT: Psyche

Not having a scumread is gross. I don’t know psyche enough to know if he could easily fabricate one as scum for optics.

I also think it’s disingenuous to call this a “sheep.” It’s not. It’s independent reasoning, and I developed my read after this in my own way.


I agree that my cases have been somewhat weak, and I haven’t tried to project them as anything but. First of all, why is that different than anyone else in the game? No one has made a good, or convincing, case on ANYONE.

Do you seriously think that I, as scum, would come in here with a weak case and actively present counterpoints to my own arguments ... on purpose?! Like, that’s my scum strat? Do you really think I don’t know how to fake belief in a scumread? This is MUCH easier to do than to purposefully sow doubt into my own cases.

What you have failed to do is make a case for why ANY of your points against me, whether I agree with them or not, are scum motivated.

You also did not answer why you were holding the case on me - you just posted it. I’d still like to know the answer to that.