Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 3.1

Replica ---------------------------------

Farkran --------------------------------

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

Bingle----------------------------------

(1)

Replica

Not sparing:

- (6) Bingle, Farkran, Amrun, Chara, Nachomamma8, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.1

Replica ----------------------------------

Farkran --------------------------------

(2)

Replica, Amrun

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

(1)

Farkran

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

Bingle--------------------------------------

Not Fighting:

- (4) Chara, Nachomamma8, Chemist1422, Bingle

3>3>3>

<3

There was a shimmer, and Replica seemed to materialize between Farkran and Chara. Replica had a rather constant stream of tears dribbling from their eyes, as had been the case for quite a while now. Arts and crafts time seemed like a long-forgotten memory this side of seeing Psyche dismantled.

"Farkran… you say for Chara to go get you a new dummy.. but.. you're very picky.. you always say it's because you're royalty.... neither of you have a cell phone.... what if Chara gets the wrong kind? I think... you should go get the dummy yourself... in fact... maybe we could use a break from you... maybe.. um a royal intermission and all.."

With little in the way of a segue, Replica lied down, contemplating the possible available dummies. "Do you think... there's one that can float... like me?... or maybe, there is one that can sing... or maybe one shaped like a cat...". The tears in one of Replica's eyes, though not the other, subsided, because there was something about idle thought that was special to Replica.

"Farkran maybe you can bring us back some extras.. you seem to agree it's not too hard of a journey... I can help make you rations.."
Replica rolled over onto their face, afraid to see Farkran's potentially negative reaction, but then they rolled onto their back again, daring to hope to see their plan come together.


With seven alive, it takes four to make a decision.
(expired on 2020-02-24 20:00:00).
Replacement Key

[Farkran]

But why did Psyche death make you narrow your PoE? That was also part of the original question.

With a couple of viable pairings (to me) taken off the table with Psyche’s death, and deciding that I think Nacho is probably town after all, my PoE narrows.

Which ultimately leads to: what happened that made you put me closer to the scum side of your spectrum? I hear you said it "pings" you, but i'd rather you elaborate more in detail, about what teams have been shut off by Psyche death and how Psyche death raises the bar on my scum equity specifically.

Lastly, i guess i can word this better if i haven't been clear with my previous posts: i understand that you would rather have had Bingle yesterday, but i am not more viable today than i was yesterday, except for Nacho's -apparent- willingness to compromise on me which he didn't have in d2. The two things together (you and nacho re-positioning your lynch priority and confidence in reads) are what worries me right now about you, specifically. I was already not trusting Nacho for his misplaced confidence on Hectic, i think i have talked enough about it yesterday.

[Amrun]

A) Obviously all teams that involve Psyche are now out of PoE. I feel like I’m not fully understanding what you’re trying to ask me... I’m sorry.

B) but Nacho backing off his TR of you DOES make you more viable. Also, it’s the first day we have full support for a lynch at all, as opposed to a spare. More importantly, I don’t really care about that - if I can’t flip Bingle, you’re a decent second pick. It has been this way since day 1. Day 2 I wavered a bit on my read of you, so I wasn’t really interested in jamming it through, but let me be clear that if I felt your fight was viable yesterday, I would have voted on it. But I just feel more uneasy about you today, particularly in regards to your reaction to the Psyche kill. I’ve also firmed up my TR of Replica today, so I’m happier voting alongside my top TR whom I have no hope of getting to vote Bingle with me.

I don’t really feel like it’s as hard to understand as you’re making it out to be tbh but did that help?

[Farkran]

Ok, point taken about my viability as a lynch. I disagree, but i can understand your answer. Does this make you scummy? Eh. Maybe, but the important point to me was whether i could place you in team with Hectic, or if i had to reconsider scum!Hectic by placing you in a team with Nacho. I really don't think you can be teamed with Chara, and i don't want to lynch you before either of those two.

I don't know how to word my question better about the Psyche bit. Why does ruling out teams that involve Psyche narrow your pool around me? I mean... would you have considered Bingle/Psyche but not Farkran/Psyche, for example? At this point it's just out of curiosity, i kinda had my answer wrt your push on me. I think scum!Amrun in this game would only be teamed up with Nacho (makes sense), Chemist or Bingle (neither make sense).

I wish i could disagree about Replica being town, but unfortunately i don't. I still think scum is in Hectic > Nacho/Chara > Amrun. Particularly, i think that the way Bingle and Chemist played during late d2 is strongly town indicative for them, which is compatible with Chemist and Almidia not willing to wagon me during d1 - this might be a staple for a Farkran/{Bingle, Chemist} solve, but to me it is evidence for those specific slots not pushing any scum agenda with their actions.

I'd like to hear Chara about Nacho, and Nacho's continuation of his re-examining.

[Replica]

Do you think I’ve been hard to engage with this game?

I thought so at the start; your questions towards me were very loaded/leading imo to try to get me to commit to much more than my posts wanted, and you were very persistent with getting me to do so.

Since then, not really. We've come together on a lot of our reads, and have consistently been able to interpret and validate the other's point in discussion that don't even involve us. I feel like I haven't had many questions to ask you/anywhere to really needle you, to be fair. Maybe I should be more skeptical of the alimdia/Bingle push+reasoning than I am currently.

I think Bingle is underselling you a bit here, but I can see why he thinks this way looking back, especially back in the Farkran read discussion. #1173 is just dismissing it as not AI, and in a pretty hyperbolic way, rather than discussing why you disagree with his point. Everyone knows that scum can push things.

[Replica]

With little in the way of a segue, Replica lied down, contemplating the possible available dummies. "Do you think... there's one that can float... like me?... or maybe, there is one that can sing... or maybe one shaped like a cat...". The tears in one of Replica's eyes, though not the other, subsided, because there was something about idle thought that was special to Replica.

Yes, YES this is the quality content I came to see

[Chemist1422]

I'm on many different levels of done with mafia rn and don't feel like catching up

I would honestly rather go pacifist than fight farkran rn

[Replica]

WE GOT THREE

NACHOOOOOOOO EMBRACE THE MERCY AND INNER GOODNESS IN YOUR HEART

[Amrun]

Farkran: Ok, I see. I don’t particularly see Psyche/Farkran as a good team, no, but I could have seen Bingle/Psyche easily. So Psyche flipping town brings me back to you in a more firm way, if that makes any sense.

Bingle/chemist is viable but Bingle is trying to push chemist over you so etc.

[Amrun]

@Replica: I see asking you questions and trying to get you to commit to things as engaging vs not engaging, but ok, that is helpful.

I think in hindsight I can see why Bingle would think that since I wasn’t really interested in his uninformed opinion. His opinion is no longer uninformed so I am interested in it now.

[Replica]

@Replica: I see asking you questions and trying to get you to commit to things as engaging vs not engaging, but ok, that is helpful.

I think in hindsight I can see why Bingle would think that since I wasn’t really interested in his uninformed opinion. His opinion is no longer uninformed so I am interested in it now.

Quality of engagement and perception of being treated seriously/fairly is really important for it though imo, and at least in my case I felt very looked down on and being made to prove myself as a player before I could hope to have you engage with me on equal footing+be more cooperative with the way you questioned.

Glad I could help

[Amrun]

For the record, I never looked down on you! Sorry I made you feel that way.

I often sort by questioning. It’s just my way. Sometimes leading questions too. Seeing how they’re answered is often helpful to me.

[Replica]

No worries, it's fine.

FWIW Bingle, I think you're right that Amrun's pushes are very explainable as scum, which is why I've been so wary to give her a real TR. I'm not sure the case really does much to get me to the not town part though-in things like that I very much bought the reasoning on Sujimichi, understood what she was saying about the A/B stuff, and didn't find it contradictory. The selected pushes all being on lurkers isn't great but it happens.

Amrun, looking at your case for Bingle, it seems to be mostly to do with alimdia's busywork and difficulty forming reads.

I'm having a really hard time coming onboard here. First is that your feelings about alimdia's busywork seem to have increased over time. Second, I really think their interactions with Sherlock were genuine and the interactions there came about pretty organically. They were really not buying what Sherlock was selling, and it was alimdia's original thinking that got there. At some point they came to Sujimichi's defense against you. Their Pine point is a good one, too, and you can clearly see where it originates. You see two lurkers but only one is getting pushed-is it not natural to think "Is one scum? Or is scum just picking one to push a mislynch on?"

#288's post on Sujimichi has no problem giving a read, and rather than easily reinforcing it they launch immediately into the questions they have about it. #289 does the same as Nacho.

The more I'm looking at these, yeah, the more convinced I am this slot is town. These aren't busywork at all imo.

[Amrun]

It did increase in its feel like busywork over time to me - nothing changed but my perception of them though, obviously.

I never liked her thing with Pine though.


I’m going to try and look at it with new eyes in a couple minutes here when I have time.

[Amrun]

I also didn’t like their response to my attempt to flashwagon at deadline. It just didn’t come off in a great way to me.

I’m aware and have acknowledge the entire time that all of these reasonings are subjective and not fantastic. It doesn’t preclude the slot from being scum anyway. PoE is a huge part of it at this point.

[Replica]

Looking at Nacho's reads it looks like he has a firm townread on me and no firm scumread. I'm curious as to where the rest of the players, a kind of update on the tierlist of town/scumleans.

{Chara, Farkran} are my Tier 2 spare later reads. These places might get paranoid thoughts in super outside worlds but these two would be top townreads in a normal game. In a world where Chemist is town and I'm apparently smoking some serious drugs then I might touch this group but otherwise nope most definitely not. Chara is my "extremely genuine engagement, like the cut of their jib" read whereas I've explained Farkran already but it boils down to extremely genuine paranoia and progression on that paranoia + playing the most batshit scumgame ever if scum.
{Amrun, Replica} are my Tier 3 "probably very likely town but who cares???" reads. Other than the whole "forgot bingle was in the game" thing Amrun and Replica have had some extremely genuine pushes and while I'm definitely more inclined to be paranoid thanks to wide scum ranges I really think in my heart either are scum hence a big "turn the world upside down" moment if Chemist turned out to be town.

I'm really interested in how these (Chara/Amrun/Replica) have progressed, in that order

The third I'm really only curious about the order in the timeline. (Expressed order was thinking I have a wide scumrange, then that he has an idea of my main, then a strong townread-what was the actual order internally of these things happening?)

[Replica]

@Nacho: Looks like Hectic just finished another scumgame. I lean that it bodes well, his level of thought never matched what it was here, but it might have been circumstances of the game. He definitely gimmicked a bit with the lolhammer but this was after the start of this game and well into our discussion on things like it.

[Amrun]

@Replica:

In light of your recent post on alimdia, I re-read them.

Up to the point where they did a reads list by ISO, I basically liked their posting. In hindsight, I thought scumhunting by ISO like that was like “trying to put up content” vs “scumhunting.”

Again, nothing was “wrong” with it, per se, it’s just not how I would have gone about it as town and it didn’t feel right.

My most recent experience with alimdia was in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=33529

She picked fights and questioned / appeared to sort plenty, especially early game, like this one. She fell off at the end of the game and couldn’t keep it up, but it was a perfect scum victory so perhaps she just (correctly) felt she didn’t have to.

My point is, I think ALL of that is within alimdia’s scumrange - not necessarily that it is scummy by itself, but that it doesn’t preclude her from being scum.

Can you take a look at this game and tell me what you think?

[Replica]

@Replica:

In light of your recent post on alimdia, I re-read them.

Up to the point where they did a reads list by ISO, I basically liked their posting. In hindsight, I thought scumhunting by ISO like that was like “trying to put up content” vs “scumhunting.”

Again, nothing was “wrong” with it, per se, it’s just not how I would have gone about it as town and it didn’t feel right.

So where are you at on the slot now?

My most recent experience with alimdia was in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=33529

She picked fights and questioned / appeared to sort plenty, especially early game, like this one. She fell off at the end of the game and couldn’t keep it up, but it was a perfect scum victory so perhaps she just (correctly) felt she didn’t have to.

My point is, I think ALL of that is within alimdia’s scumrange - not necessarily that it is scummy by itself, but that it doesn’t preclude her from being scum.

Can you take a look at this game and tell me what you think?

I read this like a week or two ago I think, looking at it fresh is nice. I definitely missed a lot of the organic evolution they started to build up as the game went on. This game is a more assertive alimdia for sure, but early on they're definitely falling into the same pattern as the other game: Concern over being objectively understood in their pushes, usually making the turn+laying out the case immediately rather than having the skepticism grow over time, and outside of a few "Why?" posts still not the same brash investigation and confusion they've had here. There's just a perpetual preemptive defensiveness to them, ex. #341 is a good example of the "Immediately lay out a case when you vote it" (Not inherently a scumtell, just an observation as to how alimdia specifically tends to give their reads as scum). #342 they preempt an objection they missed and immediately move to justify it.

I'll concede that there's a chance this game is alimdia scum, but I'd honestly be pretty surprised.

[Replica]

This game is a more assertive alimdia for sure, but early on they're definitely falling into the same pattern as the other game:

This is confusing for what games I'm referring to.

"Guns N Roses is a more assertive alimdia for sure, but early on in Guns N Roses they're definitely falling into the same pattern as the other scumgame"

[Amrun]

I mean I think trying to look at it with new eyes has lessened my scumread of the slot a little but not enough to totally rock my world. The reason I started to pay more attention to the slot in general due to PoE and that’s still a strong part of why the slot has stayed within my sights. It’s not the same as being convinced in your heart that it is scum, but I’ve never felt that way over the slot. But like ... SOMEONE is scum.

[Replica]

I'm also pretty curious for your progression on Nacho; I agree with a lot of what he posted on Farkran, but what does it

mean for Nacho?

The problem I'm running into is that it's kinda lowhanging fruit/reinventing the wheel. If anything in this game is busywork, refuting some of Farkran's points is probably #1.

Being logically correct is easy as scum. There are obvious reasons for Nacho to do this as town, but it's also the easiest place to funnel effort and pretend to be gamesolving as scum. This is someone I'm really having trouble sorting, how does your experience with Nachotown/scum match up here?

[Amrun]

I probably need to metadive nacho. It’s just been too long and he obviously kept playing and evolving and came to gain a reputation while I just fucked off into IRL.

I don’t functionally disagree. I still think the way he went about early game, going out of his way to engage me and defending Hectic to such a degree is not something that suits a scum nacho agenda, in particular the hectic thing.

I think his focus on Farkran is a bit strange, but also voting to spare farkran yesterday is bizarre unless they’re scum together. I think scum nacho would have easily avoided the bad optics of town casing farkran yesterday only to kinda sorta walk it back today. I’ve also had a hard time sorting farkran so I can see where he’s coming from.

It’s probably the weakest of what I consider my townreads but it is still a townread.

[Replica]

I mean I think trying to look at it with new eyes has lessened my scumread of the slot a little but not enough to totally rock my world. The reason I started to pay more attention to the slot in general due to PoE and that’s still a strong part of why the slot has stayed within my sights. It’s not the same as being convinced in your heart that it is scum, but I’ve never felt that way over the slot. But like ... SOMEONE is scum.

I think Farkran is one, but whoever the other is is

really

eluding me so I'm running into a similar issue. And if Farkran isn't one, I am really up shit creek without a paddle.

Reason I really don't want to lynch in you/Nacho/Chemist: I don't know how much I get from one of you flipping town. Farkran town means sound the alarm, seeing only one of Nacho/Amrun/Chemist town just says "Well, I guess it's one of the other two probably" Chemist might make the most sense with Farkran imo, particularly if that Day 2 engagement was planned beforehand, but in a vacuum I'd lean him being town over you/Nacho just based off.

Actually just working through this in my head I'm questioning this Chemist in a vacuum read, his engagement with Fark was better than expected but other than that he's been really lackluster and his Day 1 defense of Asriel/Pine and his random heal voteswitch were still a headscratcher.

[Amrun]

With chemist I’m mostly struggling to find the scum motivation to defend asriel the way he did so early, pine too but especially asriel, unless they’re specifically scum together. And even if they are it seems too noticeable. Idk.