Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Farkran]

I think there was a ton of reason to kill Sherlock over Hectic. Like I think N1 and N3 were brain dead scum
Kills any teams would make.

I also think it would be fairly predictable we would switch to lynch on day 3. Nacho also was a lynch supporter if you’ll recall.

It was fairly predictable by killing Psyche. What if another player was killed instead? What if d2 ended in a lynch? Why did d2 NOT end in a lynch, if the n1k was braindead?

[Amrun]

I think there was a ton of reason to kill Sherlock over Hectic. Like I think N1 and N3 were brain dead scum
Kills any teams would make.

I also think it would be fairly predictable we would switch to lynch on day 3. Nacho also was a lynch supporter if you’ll recall.

It was fairly predictable by killing Psyche. What if another player was killed instead? What if d2 ended in a lynch? Why did d2 NOT end in a lynch, if the n1k was braindead?

That’s what I mean - killing Psyche mace it a lot more likely that we lynched the next day, making him the likely vig. I could easily see this being a smart gamble by scum in hindsight.

I don’t understand the latter question? What does the N1 NK have to do with the day 2?

[Farkran]

I think there was a ton of reason to kill Sherlock over Hectic. Like I think N1 and N3 were brain dead scum
Kills any teams would make.

I also think it would be fairly predictable we would switch to lynch on day 3. Nacho also was a lynch supporter if you’ll recall.

It was fairly predictable by killing Psyche. What if another player was killed instead? What if d2 ended in a lynch? Why did d2 NOT end in a lynch, if the n1k was braindead?

That’s what I mean - killing Psyche mace it a lot more likely that we lynched the next day, making him the likely vig. I could easily see this being a smart gamble by scum in hindsight.

Yeah... which is exactly what i tried to point out in my earlier post. We agree that killing Psyche promotes a fight resolution, but do we also agree that a scum lynch in d3 is strictly worse than a scum assassination in n4, from a scum pov?

Do you agree that this kill mostly points to a scumteam that is not afraid of being lynched in the first place, and only secondarily to a scumteam that is not afraid of being shot?

I don’t understand the latter question? What does the N1 NK have to do with the day 2?

You said that N1K was a braindead choice from the scumteam. Why?

I'll try to elaborate. What did scum try to achieve by killing sherlock n1?
A: That d2 wouldn't end in a town spare? This implies the whole scumteam tried to contrast a Hectic spare, i.e. 2 scum in {Farkran, Amrun, Chemist, Bingle}
B: To gain towncred by ending d2 in a town spare? What makes Sherlock a better kill than Hectic, in this scenario?
C: Simply remove the highest townread at the time without further thought involved. Why do they kill Psyche n2 then? The M.O. is inconsistent
D: To spare Hectic specifically, Hectic is scum, etc.

[Amrun]

I think it does come from a scumteam afraid of being shot because they endured a vig unlikely to shoot in Bingle/Farkran, and likely to shoot Amrun (town). But not afraid of being lynched is a good point I guess.

As for the latter, I was saying C. I don’t think it’s inconsistent because until Psyche was killed n2, the next day being a spare seemed likely. Eliminating Sherlock, who would have almost definitely been spared, increases chance of scum being spared, or in any case, just seems like the most obvious thing to do because Sherlock would never been lynched. And would have fought against a chemist lislynch, which did eventually happen.

[Bingle]

I’m not sure where Amrun’s concern about being shot comes from. As of the end of day 2, I think psyches reads mostly pointed at Chara/hectic vig, with an outside chance of Amrun, assuming he didn’t change his mind post death.

I did find Nachos assumption I would be shot to be very intriguing though.

[Nachomamma8]

The Psyche kill is a surprisingly solid piece of evidence for Amrun being town.

[Nachomamma8]

I’m really ok lynching Farkran today. At this point, I’ll take what I can get. But are we really all just cool with Bingle ignoring this thread?

What are YOUR picks for scum, Nacho

I think that both Farkran and Bingle are scum. I don't see how those two defending each other and both confidently pressing for my lynch makes Chara doubt them together as a team - those two have a path to victory in mislynching me, Psyche shooting Amrun, then hoping new blood shits the bed in LyLo. Me/Bingle have a route to victory in mislynching Farkran, not by the active one of the scum pair defending town and bussing and the inactive one attempting to mislynch town. Me/Farkran have a route to victory that doesn't mean blitzing each other at the beginning of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

What are you doing on a Farkran green flip? What on a red flip?

1) Getting shot, I hope.
2) Dancing on your grave.

[Nachomamma8]

I ask that because two thoughts. 1) if I'm in Psyche's shoes I'd much rather have town sort out the Nacho/Farkran debacle and shoot Bingle as opposed to the other way around and 2) if we lynch Bingle (who replica was pretty harshly townreading) and he flips town then I'll feel pretty dumb. Would not feel as dumb if Bingle flipped town after we got a scum lynch.

Why do you assume Psyche would shoot me? He was tr-ing me just as hard as Rep when he died. Hell, that's the most cohesive reasoning I can think of for me being scum (Psyche not being likely to shoot me so I pushed hard for the lynch yesterday).

I think that you and Farkran made a mistake by shooting Psyche when you did. I think Farkran misread his confidence level in those Farkran/Bingle townreads but I think with Psyche having hard townreads on 4/5 of the living means that he's going to reanalyze and I don't think that process is going to end up looking too good for you.

Psyche was also the only one who truly appreciated me for who I was this game so it only seems right that it will be him that puts a bullet between the eyes of the last of our enemies.

[Nachomamma8]

because Farkran gets much harder to lynch if I flip town.

I don't think this is true at all but I'd love to see you try to explain it.

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t think a farkran/nacho team is out of the question but it’s not great, no. Nacho’s treatment of the farkran slot has been pretty weird either way and I can’t decide what it’s more indicative of.

I don't see a world where Nacho as scum makes a big ass town case on someone who he has to mislynch either one day down the road or two days down the road (and then basically doesn't do anything else). I don't see a world where Farkran as my partner starts trying to frame the me vs him scenario since I was working on the gigantic town case on him (continuously saying that I was scumreading him or posturing against him and me saying that I wasn't at all, multiple times).

[Nachomamma8]

IF i am wrong on Hectic and somehow scum allowed his spare for no reason at all, i want to rule out any team including Bingle because he's the only one who wanted to spare me over Hectic during d2, leaving Nacho/Chara, Nacho/Amrun, Chara/Amrun - i think none of these would explain why i am still unlynched though, except those involving Nacho because he was absent for a large part of d2 and d3.

My ideal read of you would be a SL: while i will most certainly question you in the day chat (i don't want any of us to be caught for not interacting properly or not having progression about each other), i will not bus you intentionally over anyone else unless the situation gets extremely dire.

It seems like Farkran really doesn't want to lynch Bingle today. It seems like Bingle really doesn't want to lynch Farkran today. Why do you all think that is the case?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho can you rebut your earlier towncase and give me a viable not me Fark partner suggestion?

There's a smaller range to Farkran's towngame than there is to his scum game. His town game is extremely thoughtful - the level of stubbornness we are seeing here is a caricature of what he thinks his play looks like as town, and is also something that he's leaning on in order to push a scum agenda.

He puts an unbelievable amount of effort and heart into his scum game to the tune of he's a "1 in 100" type of player. It was easier for me to believe he was instead a player who got absorbed in the passion of their nonsense logic as opposed to just a very good scum player. It was easier for me to believe that Farkran and Replica were just arguing over dumb nonsensical shit than it was for me to believe that Farkran was playing a game to the level he was.

There's not a viable partner for him other than you partially because interactions and partially because I'm not willing to flip on those Amrun/Chara townreads and don't really see any reason to do so now - feeling an odd sense of clarity when staring death in the face (which is also why I would much rather see Farkran/Nacho today as opposed to you - dead town Nacho's word seems to be much more trustworthy than one who is living near endgame).

[Nachomamma8]

i really really hesitate to say this now with hindsight but the lack of lynch -> flips looking back hurts. i don't know if we'd be better off today having spared Replica given i would still be scumreading Chemist. i also don't consider sparing Sujimichi or Hectic a mistake, so.

We still have time to make mistakes in order to mislynch people. There's still time to clear shit up before LyLo, and I think if you and Amrun can manage to not lose your shit until LyLo, we will be fine. We need to clear out of Farkran/Bingle/Me. If there is one scum in that group (there is), then we don't lose by clearing it out. If the game is going on after that then we can have paranoia meltdowns and cry ourselves to sleep but until then, it doesn't make sense - just clear out me/Farkran/Bingle first.

[Nachomamma8]

Chara have you read Farkran's other town games at all whether by skim or by something else?

i meant to ask, did you get anything meaningful out of reading them?

Yes. That's why you should read at least the Mini Normal with Menaleaque that he kept referencing earlier or the Mini Theme of the same #.

[Nachomamma8]

Or don't, kind of late at this point? Really you just need to vote one of me or Farkran and it doesn't so much matter which as long as you clear the rest of the group out after one is dead.

[Nachomamma8]

looking again at Nacho's reasoning for eliminating teams in Bingle/Amrun/Chara i feel like the only one with a lot of strength is Bingle/Amrun. it seems like an easy way to vote Farkran.

An easy way to vote Farkran for scum Nacho would be to spend his time doing literally anything else yesterday. Just saying. It's also true - the team thing isn't the only reason I'm voting Farkran now. I feel his flip, which vindicates both myself and Hectic, leads quicker to a town win. I feel lynching Farkran scum will be more exciting than lynching Bingle scum. I like most of Jingle's posting (but still feel he is scum) - I don't feel the same about Farkran. I feel best about my townreads on you and Amrun.

I've been scattered this game and contradicted myself early and often, as Farkran has attempted to point out. This does not make more more likely to be scum. I don't tend to flail all over the place as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: why are Amrun and i your best TRs going into this day?

Gut. Feel more of an emotional connection to you two than to either Bingle or Farkran.

[Nachomamma8]

Like there's too much overthinking going on at this point in time. You trust your townread on Amrun. There's not a good reason for you to distrust a townread you've had on Amrun all game.

From there, Farkran is still peddling the same line of garbage that he's been peddling the entire game. There is a clear scum agenda to peddling this particular line of garbage if he is scum.
Either he is an insane off-the-wall player ("scum wouldn't spare town D2, that's wild!!! is still a central point of the worldview he's held all day), or he's scum. His other completed towngames show a reasonable and thoughtful and very good player - a player who hasn't been present in this game with us.

Meanwhile, in your pool of three people, two people are mutually townreading each other and have person #3 at the bottom. The solution of "oh they're defending each other because giving town the catharsis of a scum flip here if they don't have to is insanely dumb" seems obvious to me - do you really disagree?

[Farkran]

It seems we are going to conclude on Fark/Bingle and Nacho/Hectic, which means we always lynch in Fark vs Nacho. I'm not against that. Pick your choice, and after a flip there's still time to fix the situation and win in eìther case. If you pick Nacho and flips town, i am fine being shot to sort things out but the ideal target should be Hectic.

Recapping the plausible routes:

ROUTE A

d4 lynch nacho, flips scum
n4 psyche should shot hectic to a town win
d5 {Suji, Fark, Chara, Amrun, Bingle} if it exists because hectic is town, needs a Chara/Amrun lynch where the other is lynched d6 once proven wrong

ROUTE B

d4 lynch nacho, flips town
n4 psyche will likely shot me, i guess, even though Hectic is still more efficient
d5 {Suji, Hectic, Chara, Amrun, Bingle} needs an immediate Hectic lynch and hope that i was correct on my earlier Chara read

ROUTE C

d4 lynch Fark, flips town
n4 psyche should always shoot Hectic because he's always scum in this scenario
d5 {Suji, Nacho, Chara, Amrun, Bingle}, a Nacho lynch should solve the game, otherwise flip a coin

ROUTE D

d4 lynch Fark, flips scum
n4 psyche shoots pops and starts an anarchy

At least this day was kind of fun, and i didn't have to beat the same dead horse over and over and over and over, fighting and arguing against bad logic with my every post. I know i have been unpleasant, i try not to. But it's hard when people just refuse to read your posts, refuse to understand your position and reasoning rather than engaging it. Today this didn't happen, and i feel much better. If i still get lynched out of it, at least it's because there is an explanation coming from a world i know to be false, but i can't prove it without flipping.

I don't feel i have been particularly stubborn - at least not more than i should have. I don't think i am wrong in saying that scum!Hectic is the only solve that makes sense from my pov.

pedit: ...or at least i hope Nacho isn't following in Replica steps. At least now i'm confident Nacho is scum and there is a wincon reason for him to call my posts garbage, so i should have no reason to get pissed at him. I don't need to explain why i am

not

the stubborn one in me vs Nacho, do i?

[Amrun]

I’m not sure where Amrun’s concern about being shot comes from. As of the end of day 2, I think psyches reads mostly pointed at Chara/hectic vig, with an outside chance of Amrun, assuming he didn’t change his mind post death.

I did find Nachos assumption I would be shot to be very intriguing though.

Sure, if he hasn’t changed his reads, it’s either Chara/Me, but I townread Chara, sooo....

I don’t think he can vig from spare, can he? I assumed he couldn’t.

[Farkran]

Undertale S Open

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

1 Town Friendly Neighbor

Each day, town must vote to

Fight

one player (HURT: ) or

Spare

one player (HEAL: ). Selfvoting is allowed. Placing one vote on each option is allowed. The mafia have a standard factional nightkill.

If a player is selected for

Fight

, they are lynched.

If a player is

Spared

, their role is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game thread and put into the Spared PT. They will rejoin the game thread later. Spared players cannot be targeted by the factional nightkill. Town aligned players lose any power roles they had when they are spared, but mafia aligned players maintain scum PT access and can still perform nightkills.

At all times: If both mafia members are

Spared

, mafia wins, and the standard win condition for mafia also applies (town wins when all mafia are eliminated, mafia wins when all town are eliminated).

After day 4,

New Home

is reached. The spare option is permanently lost. Night 4 will be skipped.
Town is awarded a bonus based on the number of players that were spared. All spared players are returned to the game thread after the bonus is resolved.

• 1 player spared: The spared player is granted lynchproof. The mafia must immediately kill two unspared players.
  
• 2 players spared:
  Once both Spare and Fight have each been used, the most recent factional nightkill victim is set aside in case this bonus is earned. That player has read-only access to the spared PT. If this bonus is earned, the mafia protect one player if mafia was spared, then
  the set-aside player performs a kill that may target even spared players.
  
  
• 3 players spared: The mafia immediately removes two players from the game without flipping them and must choose a mafiosi if no mafia was spared.
  
• 4 players spared: If all spared players are townies, town wins immediately. Otherwise, the town spares an additional player then all unspared players are removed from the game without flipping. All players become Beloved Princesses.

[Farkran]

I’m not sure where Amrun’s concern about being shot comes from. As of the end of day 2, I think psyches reads mostly pointed at Chara/hectic vig, with an outside chance of Amrun, assuming he didn’t change his mind post death.

I did find Nachos assumption I would be shot to be very intriguing though.

Sure, if he hasn’t changed his reads, it’s either Chara/Me, but I townread Chara, sooo....

I don’t think he can vig from spare, can he? I assumed he couldn’t.

The point is that Psyche never scumread Hectic though. He scumreaded Amrun > Chara. I know it's a long post but 2173 is a quite accurate summary of Psyche ISO

[Amrun]

i really really hesitate to say this now with hindsight but the lack of lynch -> flips looking back hurts. i don't know if we'd be better off today having spared Replica given i would still be scumreading Chemist. i also don't consider sparing Sujimichi or Hectic a mistake, so.

We still have time to make mistakes in order to mislynch people. There's still time to clear shit up before LyLo, and I think if you and Amrun can manage to not lose your shit until LyLo, we will be fine. We need to clear out of Farkran/Bingle/Me. If there is one scum in that group (there is), then we don't lose by clearing it out. If the game is going on after that then we can have paranoia meltdowns and cry ourselves to sleep but until then, it doesn't make sense - just clear out me/Farkran/Bingle first.

I feel this is true, and if scum isn’t in this group, then fuck this game anyway.


@Farkran: This game has been pretty unique IMO - no real shit posting, not a super fast pace, pretty congenial, and really full of content. It’s been a mechanics-free trip down pure solving lane and I’ve enjoyed it.

[Amrun]

I’m not sure where Amrun’s concern about being shot comes from. As of the end of day 2, I think psyches reads mostly pointed at Chara/hectic vig, with an outside chance of Amrun, assuming he didn’t change his mind post death.

I did find Nachos assumption I would be shot to be very intriguing though.

Sure, if he hasn’t changed his reads, it’s either Chara/Me, but I townread Chara, sooo....

I don’t think he can vig from spare, can he? I assumed he couldn’t.

The point is that Psyche never scumread Hectic though. He scumreaded Amrun > Chara. I know it's a long post but 2173 is a quite accurate summary of Psyche ISO

I didn’t think he would target Hectic regardless, I just missed that he could if he wanted to. Unless he re-evaluated, he will shoot between me/Chara, which is bad news.