Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[TrueSoulEnergy]

I've read on and off until CT died

I'll probably read it tomorrow? I was at a convention for all of today so I couldn't

What’s your read on Suji so far then?
Without reading this day.

[Auro]

Sure, but give me your stances (especially wrt Suji) at the point you've read till, please?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

We’re the SUPERSQUAD!

[Auro]

I love your energy, TSE. Thanks for the support

[Cat Scratch Fever]

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

When you return, Chemist why did you vote me here?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

@ML

Do you have me on ignore?

If I wanted to find the last coherent post from you, I'd have to open a history book, and the last post I've seen you comprehend was possibly even farther back. I've tried to minimize misunderstandings with you and that's proven about as productive as arguing with a two-year-old. On the date where you make a post that seems to understand what a post is trying to say, respond in a manner that displays such comprehension, and add a thought that has more depth than the kitchen sink I will start giving you the time of day again.

Combine this with the fact that her most recent town game she also posted largely like this - the only notable lacking factor from my skin is that she's less aggressive and controlling in this game - could be explained by a plethora of reasons.

What were the similarities? I can take a look myself later

Posting that engaged a larger majority of the player base vise her "only my scum buddy matters approach in her scum game" higher posting frequency (a small thing to take into account, however, given the size of her scum game). Additionally, I believe she had day chat with mastina in her scum game.

Yeah but your forgetting Mastina had a Mafia role that Auto Died At the end of day 2.
No matter what.

So that entire thing you just stated isn’t valid

AT ALL

Logically Suji should be pushing someone today.
But they defend instead.

So these aren’t important enough for you Blood Wiplasher?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

The SUPER SQUAD is more POWERFUL then any Masons.
This is the ULTIMATE SUPER HERO TEAM!

[TrueSoulEnergy]

@Host or someone
Can you re-edit that so the image actually appears?
Thanks.

[Auro]

Okay, finally on my laptop - time for my own case on Suji.

Part 1: The Aldusskel read.

Spoiler: Posts related to Aldehyde

I came to a different conclusion in that most of his questions, such as the majority of post 142, appear to be made with the intent to look like he is questioning, but without the intent to truly understand. His last question in post 142, for example, is a leading question with only one "correct" answer and yet he utilizes it to make it seem as if TrueSoulEnergy is Mafia "walking the line" with Auro until he needs to cast him aside.

He does something similar to Miss Lynch in post 322 using the word "weird" instead of being straightforward with assigning alignment. One could say he is guilty of doing something similar to what he accused TrueSoulEnergy doing to Auro in that he is keeping his options open with regard to Miss Lynch (and it is not lost on me the humor in that he is lightly attacking Miss Lynch for attacking Auro and not voting him whilst keeping his vote on Egix96).

I came to a different conclusion in that most of his questions, such as the majority of post 142, appear to be made with the intent to look like he is questioning, but without the intent to truly understand. His last question in post 142, for example, is a leading question with only one "correct" answer and yet he utilizes it to make it seem as if TrueSoulEnergy is Mafia "walking the line" with Auro until he needs to cast him aside.

He does something similar to Miss Lynch in post 322 using the word "weird" instead of being straightforward with assigning alignment. One could say he is guilty of doing something similar to what he accused TrueSoulEnergy doing to Auro in that he is keeping his options open with regard to Miss Lynch (and it is not lost on me the humor in that he is lightly attacking Miss Lynch for attacking Auro and not voting him whilst keeping his vote on Egix96).

I thought you were referring to 143 as a question and thought you were misreading phrasing. I should have read that paragraph closer, sorry about that. Looking back, I think you were actually referring to post 140.
Anyway, it still didn't bother me at the time, and I'll explain.
I don't read that question ("What if Auro does the scummiest shit ever") as a leading question to nail TSE. It feels more like question from incredulity at TSE's stance of calling me a functional IC for D1 from one post. "Seriously?" and " " seem to be relevant context-setters here. Also notice he moved off TSE here:

ugh that is really different from here. plus, I'm getting reminded of town TSE during marathon weekend + me scumreading him for his playstyle rather than it being truly scum-indicative.

unvote

Given the context and his eventual shift from the TSE attack, I don't think that "leading question" can only have scummy intent.
You say he's "lightly attacking Miss Lynch" - he states in 432 that he isn't scumreading her, rather just disagrees with her scumhunting methods? His interactions with her are mostly appeals to tone it down. I don't find any unreasonable posts. His keeping the Egix vote isn't inconsistent with his posts around ML. Also, what does "keeping his options open" mean? How does one differentiate between scum "keeping their options open", versus town making light pushes but hasn't definitively sorted a slot yet?

My latter argument still holds, in that he seems generically towny in a holistic sense.

I do disagree with your explanation (though I conceded that Alduskkel later explained his statement on Miss Lynch, I do not find that to be genuine), and I do not see what you mean by "holistically town."

Thank you. What is it specifically about Alduskkel so far that makes him a town read for you?

His demeanor and how much effort he has been putting towards multiple slots in the game.

I'll preface this point by reminding you that scum *have* to generally push town in order to win; and knowing that the slots they're pushing are town, their reasoning often appears forced. It's also not easy to fake fluidity in read changes as scum -

you already know

that the person you've been pushing is town; so when someone offers evidence against your push, it doesn't change your stance the way it would if you were town believing they're scum.
Suji's progression on Aldehyde satisfies this. In 430 quoted above, one of her primary points in her case is that Aldehyde appeared to ask leading questions without intent to understand. She cites the specific instance of Aldehyde asking TSE "Would you still read Auro as IC if he did the scummiest shit ever?". Devoid of context, this appears like a legitimate attack - but once you read the posts around it, it's apparent that town!Aldehyde could have simply asked it out of incredulity that TSE treated me as an IC based on nearly nothing. Suji didn't notice this when she made her attack, fine. But after I point it out in 583, she responds saying "I do disagree with your explanation" and disengages soon after. I didn't substantiate my "holistically towny" point. But, Suji asks Yshtola Rhul why she townread Ald and Rhul responds with something similar in 419 - Suji never follows up on this. Her whole progression betrays

a stubbornness towards re-evaluation that comes from a scum mindset, not honest sorting.

Part 2: Her engagement with scumreads

Town should be more interested in clearing up disagreements, no? At the very least, town would want to understand where someone's coming from, to more accurately sort someone's slot. Suji says that she disengaged because she was confident in my being scum thus making it unproductive.
Now, read this progression in a game where Suji was town who suspected Titus.

Spoiler: Open 767: Nomination Mafia

Back on the computer now.
-snip-

Scum

PMysterious

: None of his posting feels genuine to me. For example: post 214 is comes across as hedging, and post 230 comes across as too much information. The follow up to NorwegianBoyEE pointing that out in post 232 feels fake (why say Vanilla Townie/Scum; I would think genuine posting would be Town/Scum). He also comes across as generally detached to the point he felt the need to post that he is reading the game in post 489.

Titus

: Disagree with her stance on mutantdevle's vote in post 36. Repetitive in calling mutantdevle scummy but doesn't really explain why (posts 59 and 106) and nitpicking mutantdevle (post 180). Don't like the call for early intent to hammer in post 194 , and there is no need to get role claim given the setup. The snark and chain posting in posts 194, 195, 197, 198, and especially 199 come across as fake and not really with the intent to do anything other than be snarky. Didn't like the Correspondence/GuiltyLion vote for reasons above, and I don't understand the townread on NorwegianBoyEE. The further push to lynch Correspondence/GuiltyLion (post 375 ) is bad especially since it was for untrue reasons ([Correspondence]'s posting just enough to avoid attention/replacement). I don't believe post 384 is genuine.

If you disagree with my reads, feel free to say so and where you disagree. If you don't, then I'm glad we're aligned.

Why would someone agreeing with your reads mean you have the same alignment?

It doesn't, necessarily. That's irrellevant as my usage of "aligned" there means "we're in agreement on our thinking" which should be obvious from the context of the sentence.

Scum attack when we make the protown move to lynch Correspondence or get info (GuiltyLion sub).

Why is it a protown move to lynch an inactive slot that is almost certainly to get replaced? You already asserted that the Correspondence was being just active enough not to get replaced or to avoid attention (375, 417), but that wasn't true as Correspondence's last post was 7 days prior to your assertion. I think it's a proscum move to try and lynch a completely inactive slot in it's absence.

If you disagree with my reads, feel free to say so and where you disagree. If you don't, then I'm glad we're aligned.

Why would someone agreeing with your reads mean you have the same alignment?

It doesn't, necessarily. That's irrellevant as my usage of "aligned" there means "we're in agreement on our thinking" which should be obvious from the context of the sentence.

It wasn't and it's honestly pretty gross that you'd try to put me clarifying that as something that should have been "obvious".

Given Awoo is likely town, this could be planting the seeds you two share an alignment when you could be scum.

I fail to see how it is gross to assume someone can put two and two together (a common definition of "align" in addition to a preceding sentence where the theme is discussing agreement), but I don't feel like getting chastised for discussing semantics again. I didn't try to assign anything toward you with my statement, as you seem to be thinking I did (hence "gross"). Actually, it feels as though you were using that as a lead in to project something you would do as scum to me.

Titus, why did you fail to address my comment on your Correspondence assertion?

Scum attack when we make the protown move to lynch Correspondence or get info (GuiltyLion sub).

Why is it a protown move to lynch an inactive slot that is almost certainly to get replaced? You already asserted that the Correspondence was being just active enough not to get replaced or to avoid attention (375, 417), but that wasn't true as Correspondence's last post was 7 days prior to your assertion. I think it's a proscum move to try and lynch a completely inactive slot in it's absence.

Scum attack when we make the protown move to lynch Correspondence or get info (GuiltyLion sub).

Why is it a protown move to lynch an inactive slot that is almost certainly to get replaced? You already asserted that the Correspondence was being just active enough not to get replaced or to avoid attention (375, 417), but that wasn't true as Correspondence's last post was 7 days prior to your assertion. I think it's a proscum move to try and lynch a completely inactive slot in it's absence.

Well, the move is to either get content or lynch it. Your post forgets the night phase in the middle.

If Correspondence prod dodged only, then yes we should lynch it as he'd be scum coasting on the assumption scum would never put a lurker in.

Yet, he got replaced by GL who is a very weak townread based on his under weak to moderate pressure content.

I was also townreading Nee at the time. So it's the best play in the situation we had. I would love to be stringing up Melanque but I can't do that.

Correspondence had two posts in game which occurred on the same day. There was no history of prod dodging, and a phase change does not impact the inevitable replacement given the violation of activity rules. The protown move is to wait so that we can get content. The proscum move is to lynch the slot before we do.

Even if I ignored (or "forgot") the phase change, there were 7 days between the last post and your assertion, and the moderator prodded Correspondence (317) almost 4 full days before your assertion. This is well outside the activity requirements and you should have known a replacement was coming. We were (and are) in no rush to end the day phase, so pushing Correspondence was very scummy for you.

If GL is town, scum want that slot empty and without production as its mislynch bait later.

Or, scum wanted to include one of their own for town credit knowing there was an easy push on either a player that (you admit) is mislynch bait or a player that arguably quickhammered.

I didn't like your responses.

VOTE: Titus

The push prevented GL's slot from remaining empty so *shrug* teach me to play day 1

How did your push have anything to do with preventing Correspondence/GuiltyLion from remaining content-less (I assume this is what you mean, and not that your push was responsible for someone filling a slot that had replaced out)? I've already covered Correspondence's inevitable replacement. Did you think that GuiltyLion would have come in here and posted nothing but for your push?

The way she interacted with Titus in that game is starkly different from how she interacted with me this game. I don't think I should really spell it out; it should be obvious upon skimming our conversation. If it isn't, do let me know and I'll detail. It stands that her engagement with me this game

is not how town!Suji approaches scumreads.

Part 3: Her activity today

Some of us have been hardpushing her. She had already been suspecting me. One more mislynch and game can end with a scum victory (if scum makes a correct shot). If you were town and had people hardpushing you in maybe-MyLo, what would be your first reaction? Probably one of aggression, right? You'd try to find out the reasons people are pushing you, point out that they're inaccurate, and try to figure out who's scum pushing you (or) misguided town, to make the correct lynch. Instead, Suji argues in 1128 that town should be hunting on-wagon. Even if her argument was valid, this looks like a

rational appeal to town to get off her

; there's no sorting based on this, or defense, otherwise. The reasoning itself is problematic because

scum are equally likely to have been off-wagon too

, and literally nearly everyone was suspecting Egix (for valid reasons, as I pointed out) - so pinpointing a single push as coming from a scummy motivation is hard. She doubles down on her reasoning when I point out the fallacy. Maybe I just suck at explaining things, but why it's bad reasoning isn't complex logic.

--------------------

There's more in her posting that's scummy that I haven't covered here. Her attack on me was bad, and I can write a section on that as well. She said she needs to reassess things following Ald's flip in 735, but also mentioned Yshtola Rhul as a scumlean in her readslist in 476 - Rhul's flip should have also been a strong reason to re-evaluate things. She never really pushed Rhul, inspite of suspecting her. Questions like "between Egix and Auro, who's more likely mafia" (606) don't really make sense from a town mindset. Homura's ISO has two "valid questions" sure, but no stances, and the questions were in-line with other attacks on TSE; not novel gamesolving questions. Homura replaced out and is active elsewhere (this might be perceived as an "angleshooty" argument but I don't care; Homura is a newbie and I think it's a good possibility they replaced out largely from being scum).
She has associations with Pops: Pops is her "strongest townread" in 476 and claims there are in-game reasons in 414 but never detailed them; she wasn't asked for it maybe but my hard-pushing of Pops should have been a good reason to do so, no? 606 actually looks like her asking her buddy who the better attack is. Pops similarly townreads Suji and has a lot of weird stances towards her.

--------------------

Klick, if you're too concerned about CSF I can probably towncase her - it's harder to towncase people, but I can try to show you why I think she's strongly town. Suji's scum equity is high enough that paranoia about other slots isn't too much of a concern, though. CSF, same goes re: Klick.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

[Auro]

@TSE: I understand your worry about ML and she's my weakest townread; BUT, every scumlynch affords us an extra mislynch because the setup is nightless. If we're 4T vs 3S, a scum lynch brings it to 4T vs 2S - you can lynch a townslot after that and not lose the game. Right now, though, it's important to get a correct scum lynch!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

At the very least, town would want to understand where someone's coming from, to more accurately sort someone's slot. Suji says that she disengaged because she was confident in my being scum thus making it unproductive.

Yes! This part was unnatural to me

[TrueSoulEnergy]

@TSE: I understand your worry about ML and she's my weakest townread; BUT, every scumlynch affords us an extra mislynch because the setup is nightless. If we're 4T vs 3S, a scum lynch brings it to 4T vs 2S - you can lynch a townslot after that and not lose the game. Right now, though, it's important to get a correct scum lynch!

That’s why my votes on Suji.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

The SUPER SQUAD is more POWERFUL then any Masons.
This is the ULTIMATE SUPER HERO TEAM!

How do I
Make this image appear?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

The SUPER SQUAD is more POWERFUL then any Masons.
This is the ULTIMATE SUPER HERO TEAM!

How do I
Make this image appear?

The link to the image needs to end in a file format (such as .gif or .png or .jpg). Right click on the image and click "Open image in new tab" on Chrome.

i.e. try this

Spoiler:

[Miss Lane]

So these aren’t important enough for you Blood Wiplasher?

The first one is saying something that not only doesn't really counter my point, it just proves you have no clue what I'm talking about.

[Miss Lane]

So these aren’t important enough for you Blood Wiplasher?

The first one is saying something that not only doesn't really counter my point, it just proves you have no clue what I'm talking about.

This is a really mean way to say that mastina is infamous for setting up her scum team after she's dead, and considering the game only lasted 3 days, having a partner there for the large majority of the game is what matters.

Your point about mastina doesn't really apply here.

[Miss Lane]

Alright. I can see what you're saying there, TBH I forgot that scum have to push town to win here and that was a pretty big factor in Suji case. I'll look more closely later tonight or tomorrow.

[Miss Lane]

Alright. I can see what you're saying there, TBH I forgot that scum have to push town to win here and that was a pretty big factor in Suji case. I'll look more closely later tonight or tomorrow.

Like a lot of the points made earlier are arguably non-factors in a game where this isn't necessary.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

The SUPER SQUAD is more POWERFUL then any Masons.
This is the ULTIMATE SUPER HERO TEAM!

[TrueSoulEnergy]

Aw.
The word Alpha Cat is sorta cut out.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

So these aren’t important enough for you Blood Wiplasher?

The first one is saying something that not only doesn't really counter my point, it just proves you have no clue what I'm talking about.

This is a really mean way to say that mastina is infamous for setting up her scum team after she's dead, and considering the game only lasted 3 days, having a partner there for the large majority of the game is what matters.

Your point about mastina doesn't really apply here.

If Mastina wasn’t a suicidal mafia Suji would have played differently.
So my point does apply here Blood Wiplasher.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

Alright. I can see what you're saying there, TBH I forgot that scum have to push town to win here and that was a pretty big factor in Suji case. I'll look more closely later tonight or tomorrow.

TY.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I took a look at Saga Mafia, and I'm reluctant to draw any conclusions from that game since mastina was coaching Suji on how to interact with her slot and setting up in-thread interactions for Suji to look better on her flip.