In post 1433, Miss Lane wrote:The thing is that I think Chemist only does what he does as town. I have a difficult time seeing a scum player who thinks they have a chance at pulling a win this game doing what he did the way he did it. I think his actions are the ones of a player who feels as if they have no agency - the actions of someone who is alone, powerless, and feels left behind and targeted with no chance at help.
No. That’s False.
Chemist wasn’t pushed to be lynched.
Suji was.
He claimed Mason as Mafia In hopes to prevent Suji from being lynched and to try and get him out of the PoE.
In post 1436, Auro wrote:@ML: or we've nailed the scumteam and they're making a last ditch effort to draw out the Mason by claiming it.
It's possible this is true and I'm over thinking it, but I pops seemed certain TSE was the last Mason. I think the shot definitely show have have gone through if everyone believed it was TSE and then he fell for their bait.
Come on, come play. Mason WIFOM won't change the underlying reason you're under fire. I have no idea where your head is at and I'd like to play with you!
Do you have a read on ML at all? I feel like my perception of the game diverges with her and Auro, and she feels easier to crack. I'm going to go more in depth with her later tonight, but right now I'm leaning scum there.
It is significantly easier to scumread someone who's scumreading you.
ftr ML has played pretty well and deserves a win if they get it. - pisskop
Welp, we lost. I actually believed ML's claim. ... And seriously. We knew ML was a vote manipulator and still thought she was telling the truth. ... Well, looks like town is going to let the sk's win. That was kind of a genius play by ML. ... ML deserves this win. That was a good play on her part. - Rautherdir
In post 1440, Auro wrote:@Pops just please tell me how I should recognize you being town from your own perspective. We can stop talking then. If you've already answered it, apologies but I missed it.
The question is bad/unhelpful because like I've tried to describe before, the reasons people end up actually townreading me are always different from the things I feel show distinctly town in my posting.
I can only give you the stuff I would use, which the Venn diagram says does nothing for other people ever. I'll just tell you that stuff for good faith and stuff.
1. I've interacted with virtually every slot in this game, as scum I find ways to excuse myself from interacting with slots that are hard to interact with. I pretty much always get away with that. As town I interact with people because it's fun.
2. I've repeatedly put myself at risk when I usually play defensively as scum. I'm getting doubtful of my reads but I'm following when I get them no matter what it means for my slot. Possibly I'm doing this to a fault since the death ratios are different in nightless.
3. I've intermittently invited slots to do things that might make them readable to me, which I don't do as scum (it's not an outright hallmark of my townplay either, to be fair, but I feign even less of it as scum). Asking you about being BoP'ed with pretty little to no intent of actually making this a game about BoP is an example of that which makes me feel like I'm getting scumread for one of my towntells.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
While Pops' recent posting and a few others this day make me a tiny bit less sure about her, Suji is still the correct lynch. I've picked up some things that I strongly believe she wouldn't say as town, but I won't be going into them right now.
I have few plans to push Sujimichi until I've seen her response to it. To be honest with you, Auro, I see what you're saying but I'm really not sold at this point. I think I'd be a lot more willing to discuss this if it wasn't mylo and she wasn't a weak scum read w/ several other players right now.
I really need to see a game state overview from pops, Klick, Chemist, and Suji before we keep going. I feel like each of those players individually owe us one for various reasons specific to each of them. I think pushing for a lynch before that has been reached is hasty and uncalled for given the time in today. I will have to leave for a full 24 + hours again soon, and I will be very disappointed to hear that everyone decided to up and lose again because someone got impulsive with their vote.
ftr ML has played pretty well and deserves a win if they get it. - pisskop
Welp, we lost. I actually believed ML's claim. ... And seriously. We knew ML was a vote manipulator and still thought she was telling the truth. ... Well, looks like town is going to let the sk's win. That was kind of a genius play by ML. ... ML deserves this win. That was a good play on her part. - Rautherdir
In post 1448, Klick wrote:I'm going to go more in depth with her later tonight, but right now I'm leaning scum there.
ML's recent posts make me stronger on her being town, especially her reaction to my saying I can fake this energy as scum.
When I said that, she acknowledged that I could, but then thought about whether I *would* portray that energy in
this
gamestate and concluded correctly (fmpov anyway) that I'm town.
I know I'm town. There's no reason for Miss Lynch to conclude I'm town if she's scum, unless I'm horribly wrong in my reads (but pretty sure that's not the case). The nuance in her reasoning is extremely towny.
I'm reaching the conclusion that the game makes no sense if {Suji, Chemist, Pops} aren't all scum.
ftr ML has played pretty well and deserves a win if they get it. - pisskop
Welp, we lost. I actually believed ML's claim. ... And seriously. We knew ML was a vote manipulator and still thought she was telling the truth. ... Well, looks like town is going to let the sk's win. That was kind of a genius play by ML. ... ML deserves this win. That was a good play on her part. - Rautherdir
Claiming Mason if he's actually Mason is a horribly dumb play, and the reasons he gave for it are stupid.
There's zero reason to claim it to "get out of a PoE" when you're not the lynch.
He said something about not pushing partners, which makes no sense.
He used his Mason claim as an excuse to lurk this game "to avoid getting shot" which is again very dumb if he actually was a Mason.
If you know you'd get shot, and that's functionally no different from a lynch (which was an option if you're in a PoE) and there's no benefit at all to be derived from confirming yourself as Mason. It's terrible for town to out yourself.
On the other hand, it makes a lot of sense if {Suji, Pops, Chemist} is the scumteam or even just {Suji. Chemist} - he's throwing a Hail Mary to distract town and add noise, and maybe draw out a Mason counterclaim. He seems a bit angry at other players "obfuscating" it, and tried to make TSE back down from the claim in case he was VT - this is suggestive of fishing.
He attempted to break the townbloc before by suggesting "scum in Auro/Klick" based on Suji being a counterwagon to Cheeky - where everyone one Cheeky was lolwagoning her at the time.
He's done no real gamesolving this game. Sure he might be useless lynchbait as town, but whatever he has done this game has very plausible scum motivation. There's no critical thought in his posts.
ftr ML has played pretty well and deserves a win if they get it. - pisskop
Welp, we lost. I actually believed ML's claim. ... And seriously. We knew ML was a vote manipulator and still thought she was telling the truth. ... Well, looks like town is going to let the sk's win. That was kind of a genius play by ML. ... ML deserves this win. That was a good play on her part. - Rautherdir
I really need to see Klick Chemist and pops post thoughts they promised and Suji post thoughtw because I haven't seen a lot from her recently
ftr ML has played pretty well and deserves a win if they get it. - pisskop
Welp, we lost. I actually believed ML's claim. ... And seriously. We knew ML was a vote manipulator and still thought she was telling the truth. ... Well, looks like town is going to let the sk's win. That was kind of a genius play by ML. ... ML deserves this win. That was a good play on her part. - Rautherdir
Can't find the post in your ISO on my phone atm, but I think you said something about me along the lines of sensing that I'm avoiding interacting with you. That would be basically accurate, and if we're ever going to cooperate in this game I should probably at least explain why I'm doing that so you can understand my thought process better.
I play Mafia on this site for fun. I've mostly stopped playing Mafia because I find it increasingly difficult to have fun playing here. That's in large part because of the playerbase - there is a decently-sized group of users who can't help but get toxic in games and elsewhere around the site. You fall into that category. (It's also worth mentioning that I'm a particularly sensitive person even in the context of this site, so I'm willing to accept that this could be an overreaction/partially me not having the capacity to get over myself.)
When you first got pretty active as the Enter alt, I actually enjoyed a lot of the points you would make particularly in the Speakeasy. In a lot of circumstances it felt like you were making a lot of sense in contrast to the MS hive mind, and you weren't being a dick about it. Then I stopped paying attention to the forum for a few months, came back and kept finding a ton of inflammatory stuff from you. And I joined Correspondence Mafia because it looked like a good time, and while most slots in that game flaked because of the activity limitations, I lost all interest when you tried to pick a fight with me over a fairly innocuous request for you to answer an outstanding question. Combine that with what I've seen around the site, and I'm just not that interested in playing with someone who, from what I've seen, is mostly here to pick fights with people on the Internet. And like I said, that's probably mostly on me for choosing to play Mafia of all games.
But I don't think it's a coincidence that my impulse in this game was initially to avoid contact with Miss Lynch. Your arguments with TSE throughout the game have really demoralised me from going back and reading things. I considered replacing out when I found out you were Enter, but I've mostly stuck around because this is my favorite setup and most of this playerlist is great.
We're at MyLo at this point, so if you're town I'm going to have to cooperate with you. You seem aware enough of that that we should be able to progress smoothly from here if you're town. I'm not interested in going further into out-of-game stuff - it's just going to clog the thread without sufficient purpose and be fun for no one - but I figure you should have a basic explanation for why I've been avoiding interacting with you.
So the main thing that gives me the heebie jeebies about ML is her townslip. On Page 41 after the Egix lynch, she shows a lack of setup knowledge that scum would definitely have. To be clear, regardless of her alignment I read it as super fake. Cheeky shooting herself makes zero sense to the point that I don't think it's the assumption anyone makes of the situation. Also, the distance between her post at 1005 and her 'realisation' at 1006 is literally 31 seconds.
@ML: Are your townslips fake?
If not, can you please explain how you thought this setup worked when you were making your posts on Page 41?
The problem is that I think ML-town could conceivably be faking her lack of setup knowledge if she felt it would get her townread. I don't know how much it's worth putting weight to that consideration though.
The other thing I'm finding suspicious is how her reads are framed. It feels like she's organising her reads to allow herself to both take stances and allow herself to flip on those stances when it's convenient. The amount of times she's thrown my name out/wondered why people aren't suspecting me while simultaneously not pushing any real case against me is the best example of this. She's expressing controversial reads in comparison to the status quo, but she's not doing anything about them, implying she's actually fine with how things are currently. I know Auro said he liked ML's read on him, but I really... don't? Her current strong townread on Auro leaves open the caveat that he could just be really strong scum, and spends a lot of time clarifying that he looks exactly how she would expect scum to look. There's dissonance between what she claims to believe and how she tries to appear. This also happens in her reads on Chemist and pops (I appreciated how vague the '50% clear' comment was after Cheeky flipped scum). Most notably, she has remarkably little interest in the Suji push despite Suji being in all her PoE pools, and seems to be shopping around for alternatives today while looking like she has Suji down as scum.
Heading out for now, but basically I think she faked her townslip, and her reads don't match up with how she's trying to influence the game.
@Klick I'd make some points but if you'd rather Miss Lynch respond to you first, I'll wait.
Pops also made a milder setup slip - what do you think of that? Something along the lines of "so all four shots are done, right?" After Cheeky's death.
Pops is the next player I want to talk about more in-depth, but to answer that quickly, that slip is much more believable to me. I played this setup a ton years ago (you can check out some of the wiki games, I'm in a lot of the smaller versions of the setup), and each scum having more than one opportunity to daykill was a common point of confusion back in the day.
