Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[Auro]

Should have guessed!
User profile -> Board settings -> choose the custom option in the date and time setting and modify to "D M d, Y g:i a s"

[Auro]

g:i:s is more natural, actually

[Chemist1422]

Okay good morning

I’m in school but I have pops’s ISOs in their town and scum games open in another tab so I’m gonna get to reading pops shortly

[Sujimichi]

Remember this Suji :3.
Don’t forget when you come back online!

How does my stance that we should be focusing on the players on Egix96's wagon indicate that I want to vote popsofctown, or that I should? I said that we should focus on all of the players.

[Sujimichi]

There is no argument. As I said, one scum being on wagon doesn't imply you look on the lynch.

There is an argument, and it has been presented. Others are able to understand the merits, yet you continue to handwave.

[Sujimichi]

Why did you think Auro was scum as opposed to town who disagreed with your read?

I explained this in post 613.

[Sujimichi]

Suji, you keep saying you want to lynch on the wagon, but you never said who you think is scum on the wagon. Also what are you reads on Chemist and ML?

You are correct. I also said that I had not fully caught up and that I was busy on the weekends. I promised to do so later, which is what I am currently doing.

[Sujimichi]

No the argument was whether there was exactly 1 or more than 1 scum on the wagon. If you think there's only 1 scum on the wagon, then it's easier to lynch off wagon, since the pool is smaller and you yourself are in the pool and can immediately take yourself out.

If you were referring to my stance on focusing on Egix96's wagon, this was not my argument.

[Miss Lane]

Townslips aren't fake. I just hit post on mine and then I went back and reviewed the setup where I found out what was going on. When I joined the game I honestly didn't know how many Mason's how many scum there were. I thought there were some Mason's who had day chat and scum who also did. Like pretty much every mafia game, I joined to play mafia with little regard for what the setup is, knowing the basics for just about every mafia game is the same. If it took me 31 seconds to realize something, that's because that's how long it took me to open a new tab, skim the setup specs until I found what I was looking for, figure out what was going on, and post that I realized my mistake. To be completely honest if I could remove my "town slips" from the game, I would. I think they detract from the game itself and they feel like a bit of a chest for me so I don't particularly enjoy playing with them but I've grown ridiculously lazy in my approach to setups and that's probably a bad sign.

[Miss Lane]

Also, I see a couple PoEs that do not include Suji, that I have specifically not brought up - I've learned that sometimes bringing up certain stances and positions in mafia games can quickly lead to meaningless discussion and frustration, so the ones that I think willl bring me nowhere to bring up directly I try to speak about indirectly to minimize such interactions.

[Sujimichi]

Ignores the fact that Aldus later arrived at a townread on TSE

It does not. His later townread on TrueSoulEnergy does not change what transpired in those two posts. I may have been incorrect, but the foundation does not change.

Pushing Auro for essentially pushing her predecessor for having a scummy pattern of engagement. But if we look at Homura's posts, they're asking easy questions that feel like trying to blend in and not providing any reads:

I find it somewhat unlikely that you can discern intent or alignment from three, brief posts.

This is scummy because why would you give up an opportunity to engage with a scumread especially after having so little interaction with them. I don't understand why Suji wouldn't further engage with Auro to either strengthen her scumread there, "show" why Auro is scum, or to reassess her read on Auro, and I also disliked her brushing away Auro's attempts to engage as "anything can be explained away."

Because, this is a team game and it is beneficial to step away to:

1. Not clutter the thread and make it harder for others to read
   
2. Allow others to provide their input as to what has transpired

By taking in account all opinions I can better for a read not only on Auro, but others as well. As to your dislike of my comment "anything can be explained away," I think it is important for you to note that I was reciprocating phrasing from Auro himself.

[Sujimichi]

Town!Suji
Generates a new push after a misslynch.
Nuff Said.

The first mislynch occurred with Egix96, and I have stated that I am catching up and evaluating. What was your point with this?

[Sujimichi]

Redactions made with regard to associations.

I interpreted that as she left people out due to associations, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask her.
@suji

This is partially correct as I did leave some players out, and I also did not state who amongst those players listed I felt were associated hence "redactions."

[Auro]

I find it somewhat unlikely that you can discern intent or alignment from three, brief posts.

"I know the slot is scum" no
"This is scummy and a good basis to push on at this point in the game" yes

[Miss Lane]

Finally,

Spoiler: Some stuff about me that might help clear things up:

1. Please remember that Correspondence mafia was, in my opinion, a shit show of a game. Great in concept, but the mods tried to implement far too many posting restrictions. I don't remember coming at anyone in that game in any way other than jokingly. In my opinion, in the pages of that thread there was no mafia played. Any reference Dannflor and I (we were in a hydra) made to you or anyone else was joking and not intended to rile anyone up in the slightest. We had no reads and mostly vented frustrations with the ridiculous posting restrictions in that game. I didn't think we came off strong on anyone that game and I feel really bad that we did.
2. TSE is a garbage player and I really don't think he should still be on this site. I replaced into this game because I saw him posting again when I reviewed it and he seemed to be mostly normal and relaxed, so I decided to give him another chance. He has repeatedly ignored site rules despite warnings from other players, his posting is needlessly spammy and fluffy, he has some enormous sense of competence that I have no clue where he gets it from. He regularly responds to posts without even reading the context for the part he's responding too, much less the entire post, and thus results in often infuriating bouts where players have to sit and discuss with him for pages on end until he learns what he could have learned about what they were saying in the first post by reading the post in it's entirety. He has shown an unending disrespect for players on multiple accounts across multiple warnings by moderators, he makes games ridiculously unfun for a lot of people and I am honestly just waiting for the day when he either gains enough self-awareness to fix himself or simply begins to head towards a slightly less ... ignorant being. Please do not judge my on my interactions with TSE, I go out of my way to minimize them.
3. I admit that I have been intentionally... standoffish? at certain points due to certain real life and on site circumstances. I try to avoid situations like that, I don't enjoy those positions and I don't think I did anyone any particular amount of good. I have no intention of starting needless arguments with people on the internet anymore - there were a couple reasons that I was where I was that I won't get into, but I hope you'll find that I'm not typically that sort of person, and I still find it far easier and more enjoyable to make friends when and wherever possible. I can go more into this if necessary, you'll have to understand I'm slightly ... saddened ... to hear that I was getting to you like this. I hope at some point in the future I can earn your trust back because I think while I can get a bit impulsive and firey in mafia games, outside of games I'm generally a pretty solid person. If this needs to be continued after the game, I'll do so. I definitely strive to be the best I can be and if I'm putting people off like this that's not ok.

Finally, I keep trying to figure out where I met you, and there's no way it was You Could Be Anyone IV, right? Was that Klick or Klingoncelt, or were both of you there? Your name seems really familiar.

Anyways. I'm sorry. I hope we can work this out.

-E

[Miss Lane]

above is not game related

[Miss Lane]

Also there is so much more i want to say and I wrote that reallly quckly cuz i gotta leave very soon here

but if anything i said is incoherent i'm very willing to clear it up

also this might make the game a bit easier, i was at least partially scumreading klick for things they explained in their post so... hm

[Auro]

I'm happy you both are approaching this in good faith.

[Sujimichi]

But, Suji asks Yshtola Rhul why she townread Ald and Rhul responds with something similar in 419 - Suji never follows up on this. Her whole progression betrays a stubbornness towards re-evaluation that comes from a scum mindset, not honest sorting.

This is inaccurate. I followed up with Yshtola Rhul in post 430. I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was not evaluating/re-evaluating. I had been in the game for less than 24 hours at the point I voted for Alduskkel.

Suji says that she disengaged because she was confident in my being scum thus making it unproductive.

This is inaccurate. I stated that I believed we had reached the point of productiveness for our back and forth and explicitly stated I wanted to hear from others. As to my rationale, I will requote my recent response to Cat Scratch Fever

Because, this is a team game and it is beneficial to step away to:

Not clutter the thread and make it harder for others to read
Allow others to provide their input as to what has transpired

Now, read this progression in a game where Suji was town who suspected Titus.

The way she interacted with Titus in that game is starkly different from how she interacted with me this game. I don't think I should really spell it out; it should be obvious upon skimming our conversation. If it isn't, do let me know and I'll detail. It stands that her engagement with me this game is not how town!Suji approaches scumreads.

If you are going to compare game, please note that I had high confidence in my Titus read and there was a full Day phase with a lynch to evaluate. It is dissimilar to what you are comparing here.

Some of us have been hardpushing her. She had already been suspecting me. One more mislynch and game can end with a scum victory (if scum makes a correct shot). If you were town and had people hardpushing you in maybe-MyLo, what would be your first reaction? Probably one of aggression, right? You'd try to find out the reasons people are pushing you, point out that they're inaccurate, and try to figure out who's scum pushing you (or) misguided town, to make the correct lynch. Instead, Suji argues in 1128 that town should be hunting on-wagon. Even if her argument was valid, this looks like a rational appeal to town to get off her; there's no sorting based on this, or defense, otherwise. The reasoning itself is problematic because scum are equally likely to have been off-wagon too, and literally nearly everyone was suspecting Egix (for valid reasons, as I pointed out) - so pinpointing a single push as coming from a scummy motivation is hard. She doubles down on her reasoning when I point out the fallacy. Maybe I just suck at explaining things, but why it's bad reasoning isn't complex logic.

• I find it interesting you use a point against me when I was the one to raise it and you handwaved it in post 1138. You are also ascribing behaviors to me that I do not exhibit which, if you have read my previous games as you obviously have done, you would be aware of.
  
• If one believes that this is truly Mylo as I stated I did, why is it unlikely that I would want to dissuade via rational appeal a lynch on myself. From my point of view, my lynch will lose the game for town. This point does not make sense.
  
• I have stated multiple times now that I was not fully caught up, and that I would need until at least Sunday or today to get caught up.
  
• I explained my rationale for looking on Egix96's wagon. There is simply more information there than there is for players who were not on the wagon. And, from my point of view, there is guaranteed at least one Mafia member on the wagon, with the possibility of more up to and including all of them. You did not argue this. You stated there was no argument to argue.

With regard to your last paragraph, there was a lot that I did not have time to do given the speed of this game. I replaced in on Wednesday and have not been fully caught up since Friday afternoon. A lot transpired during Friday and Saturday that I needed to catch up on. Your points here are weak, especially with regard to my needing to re-evaluate based on Yshtola Rhul's reveal as Mason (I was not here) and Homura's posts (three posts). Your argument with regard to activity has no valid basis and using activity outside of this game brings outside influences into the game, which is likely a violation of site Mafia rule 2.

Your stance reads as finding information to support a conclusion and not reaching a conclusion based on the information.

[Auro]

"is active elsewhere" should be a perfectly fine point to make, I'll be disappointed if *that* is against forum rules lol.

Who are my partners, Suji?

[Sujimichi]

"is active elsewhere" should be a perfectly fine point to make, I'll be disappointed if *that* is against forum rules lol.

Who are my partners, Suji?

Cat Scratch Fever and Klick at this moment. I most would like to lynch Cat Scratch Fever today as the possibility exists that you could be Town caught in a confirmation biased tunnel. Her "case" against me was very much weaker than yours both in the information presented and effort put into it (of course, your case was misrepresentative). She is not re-evaluating her stances based on Egix96's reveal as Town, and she is not trying to engage with Klick despite stating that she wanted to "pick his brain" more.

[Klick]

If it took me 31 seconds to realize something, that's because that's how long it took me to open a new tab, skim the setup specs until I found what I was looking for, figure out what was going on, and post that I realized my mistake.

Is this what happened?
The charitable town!ML version of this that was running through my head involved you not doing any of that and just making assumptions based on Auro's 1003:

You didn't read the setup properly

Your 1006 looks like a response to that:

Oh. Got it.

I'm skeptical of your explanation - it feels angleshooty but I don't think that happens in 31 seconds

I don't know, I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.

[Klick]

Finally,

Spoiler: Some stuff about me that might help clear things up:

1. Please remember that Correspondence mafia was, in my opinion, a shit show of a game. Great in concept, but the mods tried to implement far too many posting restrictions. I don't remember coming at anyone in that game in any way other than jokingly. In my opinion, in the pages of that thread there was no mafia played. Any reference Dannflor and I (we were in a hydra) made to you or anyone else was joking and not intended to rile anyone up in the slightest. We had no reads and mostly vented frustrations with the ridiculous posting restrictions in that game. I didn't think we came off strong on anyone that game and I feel really bad that we did.
2. TSE is a garbage player and I really don't think he should still be on this site. I replaced into this game because I saw him posting again when I reviewed it and he seemed to be mostly normal and relaxed, so I decided to give him another chance. He has repeatedly ignored site rules despite warnings from other players, his posting is needlessly spammy and fluffy, he has some enormous sense of competence that I have no clue where he gets it from. He regularly responds to posts without even reading the context for the part he's responding too, much less the entire post, and thus results in often infuriating bouts where players have to sit and discuss with him for pages on end until he learns what he could have learned about what they were saying in the first post by reading the post in it's entirety. He has shown an unending disrespect for players on multiple accounts across multiple warnings by moderators, he makes games ridiculously unfun for a lot of people and I am honestly just waiting for the day when he either gains enough self-awareness to fix himself or simply begins to head towards a slightly less ... ignorant being. Please do not judge my on my interactions with TSE, I go out of my way to minimize them.
3. I admit that I have been intentionally... standoffish? at certain points due to certain real life and on site circumstances. I try to avoid situations like that, I don't enjoy those positions and I don't think I did anyone any particular amount of good. I have no intention of starting needless arguments with people on the internet anymore - there were a couple reasons that I was where I was that I won't get into, but I hope you'll find that I'm not typically that sort of person, and I still find it far easier and more enjoyable to make friends when and wherever possible. I can go more into this if necessary, you'll have to understand I'm slightly ... saddened ... to hear that I was getting to you like this. I hope at some point in the future I can earn your trust back because I think while I can get a bit impulsive and firey in mafia games, outside of games I'm generally a pretty solid person. If this needs to be continued after the game, I'll do so. I definitely strive to be the best I can be and if I'm putting people off like this that's not ok.

Finally, I keep trying to figure out where I met you, and there's no way it was You Could Be Anyone IV, right? Was that Klick or Klingoncelt, or were both of you there? Your name seems really familiar.

Anyways. I'm sorry. I hope we can work this out.

-E

Thanks for this, I appreciate it. We can chat more about it postgame if you want.

I thiiink I played a few games with you as EE ages ago (and possibly whatever account you had before EE if I'm remembering that correctly)? And you might have played a Survivor once? That's where most of my site activity is. I wasn't in the game you mentioned.

[Klick]

"is active elsewhere" should be a perfectly fine point to make, I'll be disappointed if *that* is against forum rules lol.

Who are my partners, Suji?

Cat Scratch Fever and Klick at this moment. I most would like to lynch Cat Scratch Fever today as the possibility exists that you could be Town caught in a confirmation biased tunnel. Her "case" against me was very much weaker than yours both in the information presented and effort put into it (of course, your case was misrepresentative). She is not re-evaluating her stances based on Egix96's reveal as Town, and she is not trying to engage with Klick despite stating that she wanted to "pick his brain" more.

When you get a chance after catching up fully, I'd love to hear a bit about your read on me?

[Sujimichi]

"is active elsewhere" should be a perfectly fine point to make, I'll be disappointed if *that* is against forum rules lol.

Who are my partners, Suji?

Cat Scratch Fever and Klick at this moment. I most would like to lynch Cat Scratch Fever today as the possibility exists that you could be Town caught in a confirmation biased tunnel. Her "case" against me was very much weaker than yours both in the information presented and effort put into it (of course, your case was misrepresentative). She is not re-evaluating her stances based on Egix96's reveal as Town, and she is not trying to engage with Klick despite stating that she wanted to "pick his brain" more.

When you get a chance after catching up fully, I'd love to hear a bit about your read on me?

Yours is probably my weakest read, but I did not find your interpretation of Auro's minor points in his case against me as a good rationale to be believable. Specifically, my scum read on Yshtola Rhul described as "limping there" and "being bad" when I did not have an opportunity to delve deeper into that given the speed of the game and what occurred during my absence. You also are utilizing my inaccuracy in reads as a reason to think that I am Mafia, but where do you form this foundation? Despite the fact that I said I mistakenly made associations as Mafia-indicative previously, what makes you believe that I would have good reads overall? Also, you state Homura was bad and I have been quite clear in thinking that reaching that conclusion based on her posts is baseless.

It also feels as if Auro could be pushing for my lynch while you are building a case against Miss Lynch, and given that you only need to Town members to agree to secure a lynch on either of us, it opens you up to an easier path to victory, especially in the case that Chemist1422 is the mason since, as previously stated, this is MyLo if Mafia know the identity of the Mason.

I also noted some associative-indicative items early in the game, but those are weak and not a great reason to think you are partners.