Newbie 1989 (Game over!)

[Atarashi Hajimari]

In short, because I think the sooner we hop off this train of thought the better off we are, that mena is probably town. Do I think he shoudlfe gone for this play? Probably not? I mean, I was in the game where this happened that he's referencing and I probably still wouldn't have picked it up, and even then these two situations weren't exactly identical (for example, pink spent a solid 5-7 posts saying "hey mena should I do a thing? It's super risky and idk if I should but I wanna do a thing" before "hardclaiming" masons).

That being said, let's get back on track with where we were before this day imploded. VOTE: lotus

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I also townlean Ico from his push

[Doobietime]

So, I agree with the points made by Lotus in 213.


In addition to this, Ico, post #226 right after hardclaiming makes no sense as you'd already said you were a mason?

That's funny, because I don't see menal with access to the mason pt

i even had a great crumb planned for later in the day

I'm going to leave my vote where it is for now. I have more thoughts to add tonight about others when I have more time, but wanted to respond to Ico in the hope of getting an answer before V/LA begins

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@doobie:

First, thank you for showing me that post of lotus's. Idk how I missed it but it certainly has my attention now.

Second, did you actually read the posts that lotus links in it? I know lotus is scum but I'm just need your reaction to know if you're the scum partner.

Thanks!

[Doobietime]

What makes you SR lotus? I notice you changed your initial vote for Lotus to one for Menalque and then unvoted altogether before coming back to lotus, why didn't you go back to voting lotus right away? I read the links, yes, and Lotus' points make sense to me whereas Ico's actions do not sit right with me.

But I am struggling to keep up

[WizenedWalrus]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

What makes you SR lotus? I notice you changed your initial vote for Lotus to one for Menalque and then unvoted altogether before coming back to lotus, why didn't you go back to voting lotus right away? I read the links, yes, and Lotus' points make sense to me whereas Ico's actions do not sit right with me.

But I am struggling to keep up

I posted my reason in #48. A few more questions.

1. Do you think there's something scummy about the way I voted? If so, what?
2. What makes sense, to you, about lotus's points?
3. In converse, what has Ico done that doesn't sit right with you?

[clidd]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I believe it is strange in a line of intrigue involving

Menalque

and

Ico

, that you see

Elmo

as the primary element of suspicion.

What is your position in relation to the

mason

case ?

[clidd]

As a protective measure, we could stipulate a

BoP

for

Menalque

and an expiration date. I don't expect him to be alive for longer than day 3, unless he's

scum

.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

As a protective measure, we could stipulate a

BoP

for

Menalque

and an expiration date. I don't expect him to be alive for longer than day 3, unless he's

scum

.

You think? I can see a world where he's dragged along as a potential mislynch.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Actually nah, I take that back.

[Doobietime]

I posted my reason in #48. A few more questions.

1. Do you think there's something scummy about the way I voted? If so, what?
2. What makes sense, to you, about lotus's points?
3. In converse, what has Ico done that doesn't sit right with you?

You didn't answer my other question, why did you change to no vote before going back to Lotus?

I've read number #48 and the reasoning was thin, but agreeable at the time as we didn't have 300 pieces of information to make sense of.

It's not scummy how you voted but it's inconsistent no matter your alignment, and a single inconsistent stance could become important later in the game.

2) Ico said the only possibility is Menalque is a Mason. That's what Ico said and Lotus is saying that's what Ico said, I'm in agreement with this because its factual.
Next, lotus said how what Ico said made sense (it did) but that it didn't necessarily ring true. I interpreted that to mean that there were other scenarios in which Menalque could be Town and avoid being killed or lynched. Which Ico actually supports by saying on a couple of occasions that they left the door open etc...
Lastly, lotus said that it was a distraction tactic by Ico- this may or may not be the case but it was agreeably (to me at least) hollow.

3) I've made my points about my vote for Ico already. Another contradiction they made was that in post #196, saying that Menalque must be Mason. Why say that if Ico is mason and therefore knows fully well Menalque is not. Why cause confusion by thinking aloud how Menalque -could- in fact be a Mason?

My last point against Ico and this one is stupid really, is that when Ico greeted me they said 'go lynch some scum', how would Ico know that was the aim of my game? It's either an assumption (which I don't like) or was the product of information the rest of us didn't have at the starting point.

[Doobietime]

I believe it is strange in a line of intrigue involving

Menalque

and

Ico

, that you see

Elmo

as the primary element of suspicion.

True.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I posted my reason in #48. A few more questions.

1. Do you think there's something scummy about the way I voted? If so, what?
2. What makes sense, to you, about lotus's points?
3. In converse, what has Ico done that doesn't sit right with you?

You didn't answer my other question, why did you change to no vote before going back to Lotus?

1. I did, albeit indirectly, with my first question.
2. I was evaluating the mason situation before deciding it wasnt worth my vote and going back to my previous target.

I've read number #48 and the reasoning was thin, but agreeable at the time as we didn't have 300 pieces of information to make sense of.

Do you think that the reasoning doesn't make sense anymore, but made sense previously? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

It's not scummy how you voted but it's inconsistent no matter your alignment, and a single inconsistent stance could become important later in the game.

1. What is my voting behavior inconsistent with?
2. If it's not scummy then why does it matter if it's not consistent?

2) Ico said the only possibility is Menalque is a Mason. That's what Ico said and Lotus is saying that's what Ico said, I'm in agreement with this because its factual.

You're talking about #196, correct? Let me quote the entire post:

literally the only option here is that he's actually mason,

but i don't think he ever claims that so early

he's gonna have bigbrain plays with his mason buddy down the road, not use himself as a lightning rod

Bolding is my own emphasis. The latter half of the sentence would seem to imply that he doesn't actually believe that scenario, but is rather proposing it is a 'this is the only option that might make sense, but even this option doesn't make sense' example.

So is there somewhere else Ico says that mena is a mason? If not, are you sure you read the links lotus cited?

Next, lotus said how what Ico said made sense (it did) but that it didn't necessarily ring true. I interpreted that to mean that there were other scenarios in which Menalque could be Town and avoid being killed or lynched.

Are you talking about the part from lotus's #213 that says:

The arguments he puts forth for how its a bad play in post 193 sound good but don't really ring true in practice.

What about ico's 193 doesn't seem correct? I think your interpretation of his statement is interesting given that it read as actual nonsense to me.

Which Ico actually supports by saying on a couple of occasions that they left the door open etc...
Lastly, lotus said that it was a distraction tactic by Ico- this may or may not be the case but it was agreeably (to me at least) hollow.

What do you think is hollow about the point? We were pressuring lotus pretty hard before mena made his claim and now we're having difficulty picking the pressure back up.

3) I've made my points about my vote for Ico already. Another contradiction they made was that in post #196, saying that Menalque must be Mason. Why say that if Ico is mason and therefore knows fully well Menalque is not. Why cause confusion by thinking aloud how Menalque -could- in fact be a Mason?

Addressed previously in this post.

My last point against Ico and this one is stupid really, is that when Ico greeted me they said 'go lynch some scum', how would Ico know that was the aim of my game? It's either an assumption (which I don't like) or was the product of information the rest of us didn't have at the starting point.

Where to start with this one...

1. Are you saying that lynching scum

*isn't*

what you're trying to do?
2. Do you actually think he's scum because of this point? It seems super petty.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Current reads:

TR - Ico, Mena
TL - cliff
Null - Elmo, Walrus
SL - doobie
SR - Lotus

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Oh and 72 is null as well.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

In a game of mafia information is key. The less scum have the less they know about the setup.
So you are saying I shouldn't have lost it over someone claiming a PR to lure a NK and then ousting a PR for nothing?

Not sure where you have played but I come from the old times where this was just ignorant to do. You just did nothing to help the town with it. And it's more the surface level on why I got frustrated.

[clidd]

Brief

PoE

according to my impression so far:

TRs

--> Ico | Menalque

(BoP)

TL

--> Hajimari | 72offsuit

Unsure

--> Lotus | Doobie | Walrus | Elmo

* I detected some traces of honesty during the conversation with

Elmo

, but nothing so expressive to consider

lock-town

. I believe that her doubt is genuine about the mason claim, as well as her reaction, but I still need a little more certain margin before concluding on such slot.

Lotus

,

Doobie

and

Walrus

need to be better evaluated before I can rate them (even with Lotus being

scummy

recently).

*

Hajimari

and

72offsuit

are

TL

because of their tone, at least as far as I saw.

*

Ico

is a potentially

mason

(if not confirmed), while

Menalque

demonstrates a presence that can be beneficial, but which is subject to his performance, and the time he will spend alive in this game.

* I will continue to operate at a low frequency, focusing on developing some sketches in my notebook. I will be available if anyone needs a second opinion on any matter.

Spoiler:

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Riddle me this. Why are we solving this game on day one?

[WizenedWalrus]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I believe it is strange in a line of intrigue involving

Menalque

and

Ico

, that you see

Elmo

as the primary element of suspicion.

What is your position in relation to the

mason

case ?

I didn't actually say that she was my primary suspect, though she definitely is in the top three. I just feel that seeing who might actually vote for her instead of just voicing suspicions might provide some information.

As for the mason claims, it's a very weird scenario. Seems a pretty extreme thing for a baddie to come out of nowhere with a mason claim early on day 1. I guess there's a

chance

that perhaps Menalque is bold enough to try something crazy with the prepared defense "I'd never do that as a baddie, it's too crazy". I guess. Anything's possible in werewolf/mafia. He's already recanted, and now says he's just a VT trying unorthodox measures. As for Ico, him being bad seems ever more improbable to me -- him being a real mason appears to be the reason he reacted so strongly to Menalque's ruse. I find it hard to believe that a baddie or vanilla townie would react so strongly to a day 1 mason claim, so I'm also a bit suspicious of Doobie & Lotus who've left their vote on Ico even after the claim.

[WizenedWalrus]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

In a game of mafia information is key. The less scum have the less they know about the setup.
So you are saying I shouldn't have lost it over someone claiming a PR to lure a NK and then ousting a PR for nothing?

Not sure where you have played but I come from the old times where this was just ignorant to do. You just did nothing to help the town with it. And it's more the surface level on why I got frustrated.

You're right of course, about it being bad that we've leaked information about the setup to the baddies. Now they know what sort of power townies they have to deal with, and will plan accordingly.

However, it didn't seem to me that you were reacting to the information leak, but rather to the fact that the finger was being pointed at you. I could possibly have misread though, I've been speed-reading/skimming everything to try and catch up. I'll go back and reread.

[Doobietime]

@Ata, I don't want to quote and make my post even longer...
Sorry for the delay. I spent ages answering your questions without even drafting them because I thought I'd made a logical mistake somewhere with my hunch and you had an actual reason for scumreading me. Thankfully I can answer all of your questions, and still feel as though I could be right, which frankly is a bloody miracle at this stage. I can't answer what it is we aren't understanding about eachother though.

You didn't and still haven't answered all of my question. You made two judgement calls on the mason situation, first voting Menalque because of it. Then as you say, decided not to pursue further, by no voting. It seems weird to be set strongly enough on Lotus to return back to voting for them for same reasons in post 48, when you dropped that vote for Menalque and then went for a no vote before returning to your original trail of thought. I would have thought if your SR of Lotus was genuine or strong enough you would have stuck with it or gone right back to it sans no vote.

^Which is why I'm speculating your reasoning was passable before but less so now. It's what I'm saying is inconsistent about you so far and it matters because something being scummy is contextual, presumably as more information becomes available things like early inconsistencies can paint a bigger picture later in the game. If said inconsistencies were all actions which manipulate the game to one teams advantage, for example.



Post 196,
I understood the tone of the post. I still feel as though it's exploring the possibility which doesn't help town. And 'I don't think he ever claims this early' is a playstyle reference which I can't verify. Ico should have shut it down completely, like you seem to have interpreted them as doing anyway.

If Ico's observation amounts to 'this seems to make sense, but then even that doesn't add up'
isn't he pointing something out to others and debating it extensively, but not making a personal conclusion from it, much like lotus did to earn your vote?

I wouldn't sit here debating this with you if I hadn't read the the links. I wouldn't have linked the post saying I agree with the points here if I didn't know what they were. How would that benefit me whichever way I was aligned?


213/193
I agreed with Lotus' point and elaborated on my reasons for agreeing it didn't sit right. The list isn't exactly all-inclusive is it? There's 101 plausible scenarios and Ico supposedly left the window open to a town Menalque so that's one outside of the two listed here.

Point two says he risks pinging other power roles and them investigating him diverting power from scum. A fake claim from a town gives no power to scum in itself, only the possible repercussions. If we are indeed playing with masons then similar logic could be applied to Ico's CC, who will benefit from that info at this stage in a Mason setup?

Next Q,
I agreed it was hollow because as Menalque says, he was leaning towards lotus being scum at that time.

Whew, nearly done...

One- No, I'm saying why did Ico say 'go Lynch scum' when only mafia would know whether I'm planning to lynch scum or not?

Two- had to finish on this one didn't you? After all my effort? Well... I'm gonna post my long ass argument anyway :b

I'm leaning more towards Ico being scum than anybody else at this point, especially after all this revisiting. I never said it wasn't petty, in fact, didn't I more or less say it was? I'm doing my best with what I have. Your scum read of me is petty also and that is because we are just getting started

[WizenedWalrus]

Riddle me this. Why are we solving this game on day one?

Isn't the point of the game to solve it? Why wouldn't we start on day one?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Riddle me this. Why are we solving this game on day one?

Isn't the point of the game to solve it? Why wouldn't we start on day one?

Not what I'm getting at its the fact that why are we talking about PoE with no info other then subtle reads and no conf towns is all.

[Doobietime]

Riddle me this. Why are we solving this game on day one?

Isn't the point of the game to solve it? Why wouldn't we start on day one?

I didn't expect it to be so intense so early :') worried that things might take off more when we actually have something concrete to analyse, and I'll never catch up