Newbie 1989 (Game over!)

[Elmo TeH AzN]

I'm glad someone gets my line of thinking here

[clidd]

Riddle me this. Why are we solving this game on day one?

Isn't the point of the game to solve it? Why wouldn't we start on day one?

Not what I'm getting at its the fact that why are we talking about PoE with no info other then subtle reads and no conf towns is all.

I am only offering an auxiliary suggestion, because PoE is the approximation that I will be using in this game.

Low energy doesn't allow me to go beyond that.

[clidd]

And, as I mentioned, give my opinion on the issues.

[clidd]

Spoiler:

@Ata, I don't want to quote and make my post even longer...
Sorry for the delay. I spent ages answering your questions without even drafting them because I thought I'd made a logical mistake somewhere with my hunch and you had an actual reason for scumreading me. Thankfully I can answer all of your questions, and still feel as though I could be right, which frankly is a bloody miracle at this stage. I can't answer what it is we aren't understanding about eachother though.

You didn't and still haven't answered all of my question. You made two judgement calls on the mason situation, first voting Menalque because of it. Then as you say, decided not to pursue further, by no voting. It seems weird to be set strongly enough on Lotus to return back to voting for them for same reasons in post 48, when you dropped that vote for Menalque and then went for a no vote before returning to your original trail of thought. I would have thought if your SR of Lotus was genuine or strong enough you would have stuck with it or gone right back to it sans no vote.

^Which is why I'm speculating your reasoning was passable before but less so now. It's what I'm saying is inconsistent about you so far and it matters because something being scummy is contextual, presumably as more information becomes available things like early inconsistencies can paint a bigger picture later in the game. If said inconsistencies were all actions which manipulate the game to one teams advantage, for example.



Post 196,
I understood the tone of the post. I still feel as though it's exploring the possibility which doesn't help town. And 'I don't think he ever claims this early' is a playstyle reference which I can't verify. Ico should have shut it down completely, like you seem to have interpreted them as doing anyway.

If Ico's observation amounts to 'this seems to make sense, but then even that doesn't add up'
isn't he pointing something out to others and debating it extensively, but not making a personal conclusion from it, much like lotus did to earn your vote?

I wouldn't sit here debating this with you if I hadn't read the the links. I wouldn't have linked the post saying I agree with the points here if I didn't know what they were. How would that benefit me whichever way I was aligned?


213/193
I agreed with Lotus' point and elaborated on my reasons for agreeing it didn't sit right. The list isn't exactly all-inclusive is it? There's 101 plausible scenarios and Ico supposedly left the window open to a town Menalque so that's one outside of the two listed here.

Point two says he risks pinging other power roles and them investigating him diverting power from scum. A fake claim from a town gives no power to scum in itself, only the possible repercussions. If we are indeed playing with masons then similar logic could be applied to Ico's CC, who will benefit from that info at this stage in a Mason setup?

Next Q,
I agreed it was hollow because as Menalque says, he was leaning towards lotus being scum at that time.

Whew, nearly done...

One- No, I'm saying why did Ico say 'go Lynch scum' when only mafia would know whether I'm planning to lynch scum or not?

Two- had to finish on this one didn't you? After all my effort? Well... I'm gonna post my long ass argument anyway :b

I'm leaning more towards Ico being scum than anybody else at this point, especially after all this revisiting. I never said it wasn't petty, in fact, didn't I more or less say it was? I'm doing my best with what I have. Your scum read of me is petty also and that is because we are just getting started

''

I'm leaning more towards Ico being scum than anybody else at this point

''

-I believe it is unlikely because she directly faced

Menalque

(who admitted to not being a

mason

). If she were

scum

, in that context, it would be easy to unmask her if a third CC occurred. I can only imagine the scenario

scum!Ico

occurring if the real

PRs

want to hide or if

scum!Menalque

is her partner, who forged a theater to appear that they would, in theory, be in differently aligned poles.

[clidd]

In fact, their interaction did not look like

TvS

, but rather

TvT

, considering that both went backwards as they noticed that we had plenty of time to talk. This shows a concern on both sides to know the opinion of the other players, instead of establishing a blind tunnel that obscures the view of the public consensus.

[clidd]

Spoiler:

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I believe it is strange in a line of intrigue involving

Menalque

and

Ico

, that you see

Elmo

as the primary element of suspicion.

What is your position in relation to the

mason

case ?

I didn't actually say that she was my primary suspect, though she definitely is in the top three. I just feel that seeing who might actually vote for her instead of just voicing suspicions might provide some information.

As for the mason claims, it's a very weird scenario. Seems a pretty extreme thing for a baddie to come out of nowhere with a mason claim early on day 1. I guess there's a

chance

that perhaps Menalque is bold enough to try something crazy with the prepared defense "I'd never do that as a baddie, it's too crazy". I guess. Anything's possible in werewolf/mafia. He's already recanted, and now says he's just a VT trying unorthodox measures. As for Ico, him being bad seems ever more improbable to me -- him being a real mason appears to be the reason he reacted so strongly to Menalque's ruse. I find it hard to believe that a baddie or vanilla townie would react so strongly to a day 1 mason claim, so I'm also a bit suspicious of Doobie & Lotus who've left their vote on Ico even after the claim.

I fully agree with your position on the case about Ico's reaction to the claim. This fits perfectly with the situation which

town!Ico

finds herself threatened by an imposter in her role.

[Doobietime]

328

I concur, it's unlikely, but not impossible. I said the same thing earlier in the thread about it coming across as TvT. But it's easy to play town when there is nothing to really substantiate an argument either way .

There's not that much (that's concrete) to be taken from what's been written so far, imo. Maybe it was all towns which were having a battle of wills earlier, everybody came across well meaning so I was looking for logical flaws instead.

[clidd]

Hum, I see.

[clidd]

I'm glad someone gets my line of thinking here

So, do you have any reads ?

[clidd]

[Doobietime]

Information

--> two mechanically proven towns.

Is Menalque a proven town just because he said he was or is there more to that assumption?

I don't see a scenario which

Scum!Menalque

would bluff a claim with the risk of receiving a

CC

on the first day.

Do you ?

Spoiler:

This was also unlikely but he was apparently bluffing, and it makes even less sense coming from a VT than scum- who would at least have someone to coordinate with.

Not sure why, but thus far I'm inclined to believe Menalque joined us as a crazy/suicidal Townie. But maybe that's what he wants me to think awwwww

[Datisi]

Official Vote Count 1.08

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

Menalque

(2): Elmo TeH AzN, 72offsuit

Iconeum

(2): Doobietime, Lotus Aura

Lotus Aura

(1): Atarashi Hajimari

Elmo TeH AzN

(1): WizenedWalrus

Not Voting

(3): clidd, Menalque, Iconeum

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-03-15 01:30:00).

Mod notes:

• Iconeum V/LA until Tuesday.
  
• Elmo TeH AzN V/LA until Tuesday/Wednesday.

[72offsuit]

I never trade queens

Correct. You trade your queen for opponents' pawn just for the LOLZ.

[72offsuit]

Official Vote Count 1.05

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

Menalque

(2): Iconeum, Elmo TeH AzN

Iconeum

(1): Doobietime

Menalque

(1): Lotus Aura

Atarashi Hajimari

(1): 72offsuit

Not Voting

(4): clidd, WizenedWalrus, Menalque, Atarashi Hajimari

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-03-15 01:30:00).

Mod notes:

• Menalque replaces GuiltyLion.
  
• WizenedWalrus replaces stormey815, awaiting confirmation.
  
• Iconeum standing V/LA weekends.

I’m impressed that I’m so present in this game that there are two separate wagons on me

Lol. Have to admit, this is pretty funny

[72offsuit]

Hi all,

I've skimmed through the thread, and to be honest I feel pretty lost. I've played a few online mafia/werewolf games at another site, but this is my first game here, and the terminology and abbreviations everyone is using here are foreign to me, so I'll take a while to adjust I imagine.

Looking at the setup notes, it doesn't look like it's possible to have masons and another flavor of power townie in the game at the same time, or am I misunderstanding the table?

Off to a meeting, but will get back to re-reading over lunch.

Lol, I know you are new Walrus, but I have to say this entrance gives me scummy vibes.

For someone who has played mafia elsewhere online, the setup speculation doesn't feel natural to me.
Post 2 from the mod clearly explains the setup that is prefectly unambiguous.

It feels like Walrus is really trying to play the newb card from a scum slot here.

[72offsuit]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

[Menalque]

At least 52 sounds a lot better.

Lion - I disagree as town I read the games and try to catch up when I can. I didn't post here because of [Redacted] was nearing deadline and needed to catch up with that after a bad night of drinking but was prod dodging as well. Yes bad reasoning but what can we do.

I will say I hate lotus with the oh I was pushed to L-2 and scum wouldn't jump on it this early which just has me ask. Do. You think your wagon is scum driven then? Tiger gets me on that one it's like your sweating a bit over there.

Also. Lotus I disagree as any vote can make pressure regardless of the day or time. Everyone acts differently depending on even the slightest votes.

Get a town vibe here.
In particular the questioning of Lotus on the wagon tjats formed on them and the composition (alignment-wise) of said wagon.

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

what happened here 72?

[72offsuit]

I posted my reason in #48. A few more questions.

1. Do you think there's something scummy about the way I voted? If so, what?
2. What makes sense, to you, about lotus's points?
3. In converse, what has Ico done that doesn't sit right with you?

You didn't answer my other question, why did you change to no vote before going back to Lotus?

I've read number #48 and the reasoning was thin, but agreeable at the time as we didn't have 300 pieces of information to make sense of.

It's not scummy how you voted but it's inconsistent no matter your alignment, and a single inconsistent stance could become important later in the game.

2) Ico said the only possibility is Menalque is a Mason. That's what Ico said and Lotus is saying that's what Ico said, I'm in agreement with this because its factual.
Next, lotus said how what Ico said made sense (it did) but that it didn't necessarily ring true. I interpreted that to mean that there were other scenarios in which Menalque could be Town and avoid being killed or lynched. Which Ico actually supports by saying on a couple of occasions that they left the door open etc...
Lastly, lotus said that it was a distraction tactic by Ico- this may or may not be the case but it was agreeably (to me at least) hollow.

3) I've made my points about my vote for Ico already. Another contradiction they made was that in post #196, saying that Menalque must be Mason. Why say that if Ico is mason and therefore knows fully well Menalque is not. Why cause confusion by thinking aloud how Menalque -could- in fact be a Mason?

My last point against Ico and this one is stupid really, is that when Ico greeted me they said 'go lynch some scum', how would Ico know that was the aim of my game? It's either an assumption (which I don't like) or was the product of information the rest of us didn't have at the starting point.

I'd say you are over-reading into this, be it as town over-reaching,
or as scum trying to manufacture false scumtells, probably benefit of the doubt and would say this probably isnt actually scummy.

Ico's 'go lynch some scum' feels not too dissimilar to my welcoming post.

@Doobie:
If you thought it was a stupid point, why bring it up?

[72offsuit]

At least 52 sounds a lot better.

Lion - I disagree as town I read the games and try to catch up when I can. I didn't post here because of [Redacted] was nearing deadline and needed to catch up with that after a bad night of drinking but was prod dodging as well. Yes bad reasoning but what can we do.

I will say I hate lotus with the oh I was pushed to L-2 and scum wouldn't jump on it this early which just has me ask. Do. You think your wagon is scum driven then? Tiger gets me on that one it's like your sweating a bit over there.

Also. Lotus I disagree as any vote can make pressure regardless of the day or time. Everyone acts differently depending on even the slightest votes.

Get a town vibe here.
In particular the questioning of Lotus on the wagon tjats formed on them and the composition (alignment-wise) of said wagon.

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

what happened here 72?

I''m saying if Walrus is scum, which is my current read, then I would hazard a guess that elmo is scum
However, I currently have a town-lean on elmo.

Your question is a valid one and I gives me a townie vibe.

[72offsuit]

Brief

PoE

according to my impression so far:

TRs

--> Ico | Menalque

(BoP)

TL

--> Hajimari | 72offsuit

Unsure

--> Lotus | Doobie | Walrus | Elmo

* I detected some traces of honesty during the conversation with

Elmo

, but nothing so expressive to consider

lock-town

. I believe that her doubt is genuine about the mason claim, as well as her reaction, but I still need a little more certain margin before concluding on such slot.

Lotus

,

Doobie

and

Walrus

need to be better evaluated before I can rate them (even with Lotus being

scummy

recently).

*

Hajimari

and

72offsuit

are

TL

because of their tone, at least as far as I saw.

*

Ico

is a potentially

mason

(if not confirmed), while

Menalque

demonstrates a presence that can be beneficial, but which is subject to his performance, and the time he will spend alive in this game.

* I will continue to operate at a low frequency, focusing on developing some sketches in my notebook. I will be available if anyone needs a second opinion on any matter.

Spoiler:

Find it hard to believe, but I actually agree with Clidd;s readslist for once.

Ye, agree that Mena is unlikely to be scum. Super risky strategy in a Newbie game to pull this sort of gambit. Agree it is basically suicide to trade 1 for 1.

Town-lean: Ico/Clidd/Mena/Elmo
Null: Ata/Doobie
Scum-lean: Walrus/Lotus

[72offsuit]

Riddle me this. Why are we solving this game on day one?

Because shit that cant be undone has occured.

So we move on and pick up the pieces after armageddon and make the best of the situation.

[Menalque]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

why does your head go to bus vote if you have an independent town-lean on Elmo

how do the two play off each other in your mind

[72offsuit]

A bit more seriously is that Doobie straight up admitted this was her first game ever, and that's pretty cool. Dunno 'bout the rest of ya, but I'm not gonna vote for her during D1 unless she does something super scummy at any point. Just so she can actually play the game a bit, y'know?

This actual feels like scum-buddying.

[Menalque]

Ye, hate these arrogant plays.
Doesn't help town.
VOTE: Menal

Crap reads list too

What about me being arrogant makes me scum

Why is my readslist crap

also, answer these

[72offsuit]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

why does your head go to bus vote if you have an independent town-lean on Elmo

how do the two play off each other in your mind

I'm not so arrogant to think that I can read people incorrectly.
Its a slight-town lean on elmo based off 1 post, however I'm feeling more confident with Walrus being scum, ergo, if Walrus flips as scum, elmo scum-stocks increase due to the bussy feel of walrus' post.